The Leslie Flint Educational Trust

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Reverend Charles Drayton Thomas (1867-1953)

Another photo of Mr Thomas can be found here.

The Charles Drayton Thomas séance

Recorded: June 29th 1970


“You cannot escape from yourself...”


Charles Drayton Thomas was a great champion of psychical research during his lifetime. He recorded many hours of trance sittings,
hosted public demonstrations of mediumship
 and he introduced George Woods to Leslie Flint.

In this recording Mr Thomas returns to communicate with his friends.  
He refers to the séance recordings of George Woods
then talks of spiritual laws, cause and effect, the power of thought,
disease, nature and the power of the spirit.


Thomas then goes into detail about his current work in helping to 
inspire souls who reside in lower spheres, close to the Earth.

Finally, he is asked about the medium Gladys Osborne Leonard,
who he knew and worked with for many years.

In the first minute we hear the voice of Sylvia Pankhurst,
who's mother communicated in 1968,
then a male voice interrupts,

but Mr Thomas soon steps in to speak clearly and distinctly
throughout the rest of this fascinating séance.




Note: Although this vintage recording has been enhanced, the volume fluctuates occasionally.

 

Please read the full transcript below as you listen...


Present: 

Betty Greene, George Woods, Leslie Flint


Communicators: 
Sylvia Pankhurst, Unknown male voice, Charles Drayton Thomas




Greene:

Hello?


Pankhurst:

Mrs Greene.


Greene:

Good morning.


Woods:

Good morning.


Pankhurst:

How are you?


Greene:

Very well thank you. Very well.


Woods:

Oh very well indeed. Very well.


Greene:

Nice to hear you.


Woods:

Who’s speaking?


[Pause]


Woods:
Hello?


Greene:

Well you're voice does sound...


Pankhurst:

Sylvia Pankhurst.


Woods:

Ah! I’m so pleased you've come through.


Greene:

I thought so. Yes, hello.


Woods:

Yes.


Pankhurst:

A crowd of people here.


Woods:

Good.


Greene:
Yes?


Pankhurst:
More than usual.


Greene:

Yes? Well what have you got to tell us today Mrs Pankhurst?


[Whispering] I thought it might have been actually...


Woods:

Yes.

Well Mrs Pankhurst you’ve done very well, we can hear you well.


Male voice:

Sylvia Pankhurst?


Woods:

Yes?


Greene:

Yes?


Male voice:

What a nuisance that woman was.


Greene:

Oh!


Flint:

Huh!


Woods:

Well I think she's done a lot of good work. She got the vote didn’t she?


Male voice:

Oh, she got the vote. But my goodness me she gave plenty of trouble in her time. She and her suffragette movement.


Greene:

Yes.


Male voice:

Still, I suppose in some respects she did some good. Although I am not so sure that, uh, the women pulled their weight to that extent.


Woods:

Oh I - I - I - I think they have. A lot of them have, like Barbara Castle and those...


Male voice:

Oh, they were going to do so much if they got into Parliament. I don't know that they've done all that much.


Woods:

Well I don’t think they’ve really had a chance, really, to do much.


Male voice:

My goodness me, if they haven't had a chance I don’t know who has.


Woods / Greene: [Laughing]


Male voice:

They were going to do this and they were going to do that.


Woods:

Who’s speaking?


Male voice:

Quite a long time ago now though.


Greene:

Who are you friend?

May we have your name - please?


[Pause]


Flint:

Huh!


Woods:

Come on friend, can we have your name?

I wonder who that was?


Greene:

I would say somebody...somebody in Parliament. I don’t know really.


Woods:

Yes. Could be.


[Pause]


Drayton Thomas:

Sometimes, for you dear people on your side, somebody will come and say a few words and then they will fade out.


Greene:

Yes.


Drayton Thomas:

Then someone else will make an attempt and quite often it must be very confusing for you. But of course this is bound to be I’m afraid, some people of course find great difficulty in sustaining conversation...


Greene:

Mmm?


Drayton Thomas:

...others just can’t manage it at all. And there are a few who, probably through experience and opportunity, are able to manifest pretty well and get over, to some extent I suppose, um, their personality, something of the old self and assert, in such a way, that there's little doubt as to who the person is.


But of course there are crowds of people who just can’t manage it and make quite a mess up of it, I suppose. This is bound to be, you see. You can’t expect much else.


Oh well, well, well. Then how are you Leslie?


Flint:

Oh I’m very well, thank you.


Woods:

Who’s speaking?


Drayton Thomas:

Mr Greene... Mrs Greene rather...


Greene:

Hello yes?


Drayton Thomas:

...Mr Woods.

Woods:

Yes?


Greene:

Who is it?


Drayton Thomas:

Hello, it's Charles Drayton Thomas.


Greene:
Oh, hello Mr Drayton Thomas.


Woods:
Oh...


Drayton Thomas:

I thought it was about time I should put in an appearance.


Woods:

Yes.


Drayton Thomas:

But you know, I do find it so interesting you know. When I stand here and I listen to all the various souls trying to manifest and contact. I realise now, but I didn’t of course fully appreciate before. How could I? The many difficulties. I had a pretty good idea there were problems and difficulties, but I never thought it was quite as bad as it is.


Of course, there are some times when the conditions are absolutely splendid and we’re able to get through and it doesn’t seem to be any real problem at all. But that depends a lot on the communicators. Some communicators just take it in their stride and they come and they speak - and as clearly and as distinctly as if they are in the physical body.


Well, it’s a great pleasure to come and talk to old friends. How are you getting on with your good work?


Greene:

Well I expect you’ve heard about all the publicity in the papers. Have you Mr Thomas?


Drayton Thomas:

Oh I’ve heard all about it, yes...


Greene:

Your tape's gone around the world.


Drayton Thomas:

...and I think that, uh, there is going to be a tremendous upsurge in the movement in the coming months and the next year or so.


Greene:

Good.


Drayton Thomas:

I think the medium's going to play a very important part in it too.


Greene:

Yes.


Drayton Thomas:

But you...you know, you two, uh, have got a lot to be thanked for, you know. You’ve...you’ve really put him on the map in a sense, with all the tapes and taking them around and playing them and sending them here and there.


All sorts of people have become interested - roused a lot of interest and even if, in some instances, it's a curi...curiosity, it sets people thinking and talking.


Greene:

What are you doing now Mr Thomas?


Drayton Thomas:

Oh, me?


Greene:

Yes, what are you doing?


Drayton Thomas:

Well, to some extent, I'm teaching the lesser souls. I don’t like using that expression. I shouldn’t have used it in the first place, because in a sense, um, there's no one lesser, uh... 


We're all on different, uh, levels of consciousness, levels of experience, or lack of it and I am very happy in doing a certain amount of work on certain spheres, uh, trying to enlighten souls and to uplift them. And to try and give them an insight into the things that really matter and help to...to...to draw them out of the darkness of...of...in which they exist, which is, of course, due to their state of mind.


Woods:

Yes.


Drayton Thomas:

Oh, I find it very interesting and I’m very happy to go and help and teach and uplift where I can. Of course, I've got many other interests as well, you know.


Woods:

I was meant to ask... can you tell us something about the Law of Karma? We get asked a lot, about that...


Drayton Thomas:

Oh my goodness me, what a question.


Woods:
Well, about the, uh...


Flint: [Sniffing. Clears throat.]


Woods:
...you know, the laws of life there, on that side. How they operate and that sort of thing, you see.


Drayton Thomas:

Well the laws of life are the same wherever you happen to be! They are all basically the same laws.


Woods:

Yes.


Drayton Thomas:

Of course, in a sense, in the material sense that is, on Earth, uh, there is a... a difference in as much that you're affected by material conditions. But it doesn’t alter the fact that it's the same law operating on all different levels of consciousness.

And after all, it is as you are, deep inside yourself as an individual. As you think, so you are and so you will create, in accordance with that attitude of mind and thought which is peculiar to yourself - whether you are in the body or out of it.


The whole point is, of course, in a sense, there isn’t all that difference. We have a psychical, spiritual body, you have a material body. But it’s the same spirit manifesting and flowing through all the varying degrees and conditions of life, whatever body you are utilising at that particular moment of time.


The point is, in a sense, there isn’t any great difference. It's all a matter of strata and condition and of outlook and opinion and development or lack of it.


And, um... this business of Karma. Whatever you sow, in some shape or form, you are bound to reap. You may not reap it...


[Break in recording]


… incarnation or one life, as you call it, but you'll reap it in another. You cannot escape from yourself - no matter how much you may try, how much you may wish to. You may appear to for a time and, uh, for a while you go sailing on. But sooner or later it catches up with you. It's like a boomerang; what you throw out will come back to you.


If you throw out good thoughts, good conditions, you try to create harmony and love and bring about brotherliness and understanding and peace and tranquillity - you’ll find that it will, not only be of benefit to many souls and help many to expand in themselves as individuals, as human beings, but it will also help you.


Though, of course, when you do do something, you don’t do it with thought of return, you don’t do it with the thought of gain. You do it because you want to do it, because you want to be, as it were, expressing the love of God, the power of God, the will of God - manifesting, uh, as far as it is humanly possible, particularly when you are on Earth, that which you realise is of the Divine, which nothing can destroy.


The more you give out, the more you find you receive in return, you cannot escape from yourself. This business of Karma, this is something which a lot of people have strong views and ideas about, but usually they don’t really understand the meaning and the term... the meaning of the term at all.


You must give out and the more you give out, the more you will receive in return. But if you give out bad thoughts, then bad actions will follow and others will suffer, not only yourself.


You see, the point is that, every individual is part of the other. You are not, as you often think, a separate individual. In a strange kind of way you may consider yourself as such, and in a kind of way you are. But you are all part of the same spirit and if you think on the wrong lines, then you will affect someone near and dear to you, quite often, and sometimes people far removed from you.

A thought is a very great and real thing, and if very... large numbers of people think on the wrong level of consciousness and the wrong ideas and ideals, then, of course, tragedy follows in its wake. This is Karma, in as much that, what you sow you reap.


Green:

That also applies Mr Thomas to, um...healing and disease of the body too.


Drayton Thomas:
Oh, there's no doubt about it - that if people were to think healthily, uh...they would live healthily.


Greene:

Well, you see...


Drayton Thomas:

But, uh...man has created disease over centuries of time by wrong thinking and wrong living and has made it so, that all sorts of illnesses and, uh...varying, uh...kinds of, um...sickness enter into his physical body and, of course, in his mind. It starts with the mind and this is something which is very solid and very real.


Everything that is of the mind has, in a sense, while on Earth, got a physical counterpart. It’s a reaction to these thoughts. Brings in its wake all sorts of problems.


Greene:

Does it go a little bit deeper than that? The body is made up of atoms, which is life and therefore mind, and as your mind thinks, so you attract - although that is of mind - diseases or bad things that will attack certain parts of the body.


Drayton Thomas:

This is true enough. But, um... everything, I’ve come to the conclusion, springs from the state of mind.


Woods:

One thing, one...


Drayton Thomas:

I’m so sure this is so.


Woods:

What I refer to [is] the tremendous cruelty that's going on, under his modern age, as they call it, with animals: shutting, uh... hens up into little coops*

*coop = chicken enclosure

Greene:

Yes.


Woods:

...for the rest of their lives - chickens who never see daylight.


Flint: [Clears throat]

Woods:

...and never let sun on cows, never let them ever come out to see the urban life. And they‘re doing it with pigs, they do it with every form of animal.


Drayton Thomas:

You can be well assured that eventually this will develop in such a way that man will suffer.


Greene:
Mmm...


Woods:

Yes.


Drayton Thomas:

Uh... certain new diseases or certain conditions will follow, in a physical sense, that will be obviously detrimental to him physically, and of course mentally.


Woods:

Yes.


Drayton Thomas:

You cannot interfere with nature. You must leave nature to work out its own way and its own method. You cannot interfere without, sooner or later, having to suffer in consequence.


And if they do this sort of thing to animals, uh... such as you were saying about the chickens being cooped up, then of course you’ll have, eventually, reactions which will affect the physical organism, you know.


Greene:

Yes.


Drayton Thomas:

No doubt about that.


Woods:
They're, uh...killing hundreds of birds and animals...

Flint:[Sniffing]


Woods:

...through some sort of chemicals they spray the land with. It seems to be terrible, this awful destruction and cruelty amongst the nature, they're putting on the land.


Drayton Thomas:

Well... all these artificial things that man has created are bound to, sooner or later, have side effects. Man will find that all sorts of new and strange things will happen.


Woods:

What's your...?


Drayton Thomas:
You know, I... I feel sure of this.


Woods:

What is your side like where you are now? Have you passed into a... a more advanced plane?


Drayton Thomas:

Well that rather depends on what aspect of life you happen to be existing in. And since I, speaking for myself, uh...have the advantage, in as much that I've been here sufficiently long and have learned sufficiently to experience many things; that I can sometimes be in one condition of life and sometimes I can be in another, totally un... unlike.


Woods:

Yes.


Drayton Thomas:

It’s a matter of adjusting one’s mind and oneself to whatever condition you wish to, uh... enter into, which you wish to be part of, and which perhaps you have a desire to serve in.


For instance, when I go down to certain spheres to do certain work that appeals to me, that I know will be of value, will be of service and help, then I have to, to some extent, enter my thought-force onto that level of consciousness, so that I can become and be part of it, even though it's only of a temporary nature.


And then I can, sort of, talk to the people and enter into their makeup and understand the workings of their mind, to a certain extent. And I can also, by forcing my own self; my deeper self; my more advanced self; the consciousness of that of which I have become, I can talk to them.


And I can give them a demonstration, sometimes, of the power of the spirit, which, uh...is for them something very new and very strange and, uh...give them a form of experience which they’ve never had before and endeavour, by this method and this way, to drag them, as it were, out of the lethargy...letharg... lethargic condition in which they find themselves.


Because a lot of these people, uh...are not necessarily bad people. A lot of them have got into a very poor state and they're quite sort of, uh... lethargic about everything appertaining to themselves and their life. They live in a kind of dream world of their own creation.


And they have to be re-awakened into the realisation of things which lie ahead, things which are more uplifting and more solid and more real and more, shall we say, um...in-keeping with the spirit of man.

You see, a lot of people, they get into a peculiar state where they are neither happy nor unhappy. Where they, sort of, drift in a, sort of, state of mind which is, um... in itself a very sort of, um... held back by circumstances and thought-forces appertaining to self and the old self, as they knew upon Earth.


Sometimes we have lots of difficulties and problems with some... some of the souls who are obviously very un... unenlightened and very much, um... stupefied is perhaps the word - that they can’t think clearly nor see, and they live in a kind of world which, in some respects, is not dissimilar to the material world.


It has many aspects of your world which are familiar, and in which they find themselves and which they accept is a state of being to which they have, um... brought themselves or entered into. And as far as they are concerned, it’s the only state of being that is.


And they don’t realise there are higher forms of life, higher, uh... states of being to which they might well evolve and become, in consequence, much more open and much more, shall we say, happy souls, with a wider vision and a greater expanse of opportunity.


A lot of these people, they stay on this, sort of, odd, strange level of consciousness - which isn’t terribly far removed from Earth - but they are living in a kind of dream-state in which they need jerking out of. And that’s what we try to do.

Many of us, we go and we enter into their homes and into their lives and we even try to make them appreciate the power that they have within them, that they can manifest that power in that particular environment. Even if they cannot yet aspire or at that moment, as it were, aspire to something higher.


In other words, we try to give them a rejuvenating force, uh... which, in itself, will make them start to think more deeply and with more concern about themselves and the possibility of change.


You see, there's this great... this is a great sort of atmosphere and attitude of mind with a lot of these people. They are quite, in their own fashion and way, content to stay on that level of consciousness. And some of them haven’t, of course, met souls that, uh... they were drawn to or attached to when on Earth.


Perhaps, in certain instances, it is as well, for they are not really ready, perhaps, altogether, to enter into a state of being, in any case, where certain relations or friends they were fond of, do dwell. But quite often those souls who, in themselves, are more advanced, will also make the effort to reach them.


But, of course, a person can only be reached when they themselves have opened up their mind and their consciousness and have a deep desire, within themselves, for change and for greater realisation and the greater expanse, as it were, of vision and experience.


In other words, some of us like myself and others, many others too, our main purpose in going is to set the wheels in motion; is to, as it were, try to open the eyes a little - if only just a fraction - so that there will be a flicker of... of hope and a flicker of realisation of the possibility of a greater and more extensive life and a greater possibility of achievement.


So many people, I... I regret to say, do enter into a state of being where they're perfectly content to remain, they have no desire for change. They find more or less, within reason I suppose, what they need most and an extraordinary amount of people have little ambition - and I mean ambition in a spiritual sense, of advancing beyond a certain condition or phase of existence in which they find themselves.


In other words, I suppose you could say, we are re-awakeners or awakeners of the spirit in man. Trying to, sort of, in...in...in, bring into being within the human mind or the human self, the realisation of the possibility of the power of spirit within. Which, of course, is what all religions, fundamentally, should be trying to do and in some instances do try to do, when one is still on Earth.


The basis of religion is the awakening of man’s spiritual consciousness and awareness, so that he will begin to search for himself, exert himself and overcome the weaknesses of self and the physical, material aspects of self, which so often hold a man down. And as they hold a man down materially, so they can, in a certain... to a certain extent, hold one down on this side, on certain lower spheres, which are very near and very akin to the Earth.


And on these spheres there are millions of souls that dwell. Some have been there, possibly as you term time, for centuries! And, um... time being, as it were, a big illusion, they are not conscious, many of these people, indeed or aware, that time has elapsed.


Some of them still live in past memory and past thought and they still create for themselves surroundings and conditions - which, uh...would be comparable perhaps to, uh... conditions and places upon Earth of centuries ago. There are certain places or spheres where you... one can go to, and I’ve been to them, where you might be going back into the dim Dark Ages.


Woods:

Good gracious!


Greene:
Gracious!


Drayton Thomas:

But, of course, these are conditions of life created by individuals who were very strong, uh... characters in their way. Perhaps very much held down by religious belief and persuasion, who had very strong firm fixed views and, uh... invariably thought themselves, um... not perfect perhaps, but thought their attitude of mind was the right one and everyone else’s was the wrong one.


And, I regret to say, there are some very dark spheres, where certain types of individuals remain and so they presumably will remain - until they start to search, to some extent, within themselves and are helped by souls, that go to them from other spheres, to try to bring some light and illumination into the darkness of their minds.


And this world or world or aspect of world or sphere or condition - call it what you will - in which they find themselves, is merely the reflection of themselves. It has no real foundation. It has no real basis of reality. These are thought-created worlds from within one’s self, which are very real to the inhabitants. But, of course, the people like myself and others who go to them, there is no reality at all. It is all a state of illusion.


But one must bear in mind, that there are many stages of evolution and lack of experience or conditions of life, which really are fundamentally worlds of illusion - which man has created by illusion, by a state of thought and mind - and made so for himself, what appears to him, to be a reality of solidity and has all the appearance of reality.


But we who are advanced, to a certain extent, see into these worlds and we know them for what they are: states of mind, states of being; artificially created with no basis in fact or truth - but only held, as it were, in a form or a sense of substance, by the minds and the thoughts of the individuals who made them possible.


So, we... just as we come down to you and we try to uplift you and try to inspire you and try to point out the way, uh... for you to take - so we do the same with other spheres. There are spheres which, in some senses, one might say, in some ways particularly, are less advanced than yours.


You see, one must realise that one will find oneself in a condition of life or state of being to which one is best suited, to which one had prepared oneself, maybe unconsciously. As one thinks, so one is and that’s why one must get into one’s mind the reality of this truth: that you cannot enter into any condition of life, until you yourself have made it practical and possible.


That is why it behoves every individual to seek for that which is the highest and the best; that which will bring the greatest joy and satisfaction, because it is of the spirit and therefore something of real value. Not of a material nature.


The more you strive for things of the mind and of the spirit, the more you will, when you come here, go beyond those lower conditions or enter the conditions or spheres of existence which hold and bolt men down, sometimes, as I’ve have said, for centuries, as you term time.


But then, to those people, time is as nothing. In a sense, of course, we know it is a great illusion. But there are souls who still carry on and sometimes impinge themselves on Earth. And through people on Earth try to have their own life, as it were, back again or influence individuals to say and do things which it would be, in the normal way, foreign to that person on Earth.


Then you get these cases of obsession. Then you get these cases of people who, without realising it, take on some aspect of other individual's makeup and mentality. And do things, perhaps sometimes on the spur of the moment, [for] which they are not really responsible and commit some crime.


You don’t know what it’s like with some of these souls who are Earthbound or living in conditions of mind near to Earth, in a condition of life which is as real to them, as yours is to you. You see yours isn’t the only world, in a sense, that is of the material. There are other material worlds, just as bad and much worse, perhaps, than yours. But they are all states of mind; states of being, created by man over generations of time.


And it... you see, the point is, that one doesn't suddenly become a divine being; a highly illuminated soul. You have to, often, go through many phases and conditions of life, before you go far beyond the confines of Earth. And when one realises this, one must realise there will be individuals, tried to contact, on all stratas of being, with and without experience, good and bad, indifferent souls who have much quality, and at the same time much in their makeup which is doubtful.


You have to learn to differentiate. You have to test the spirits and see if they be of God. But we must always remember, that we are all part of God’s plan and God's purpose. We are all on different levels of consciousness. We are all on different levels of realisation.


And it behoves us to help each other and not reject any soul - no matter how lowly they may be or how they may seem on the surface to be - what even the world calls evil. For out of evil can come good and we must help all those less fortunate souls. We must not turn our back on them.


We’ve got to give of ourselves freely and completely and absolutely and we must not doubt that everything that we do has some meaning, some purpose. It may not be revealed to us at the time, but later on we shall see it for what it is, in all its truth and we shall realise the meaning and purpose of many things that are obscure at the time.


What I say to you is: continue your good work. Keep your minds open and free. Strive to help all peoples on both sides, whatever level of consciousness they may find themselves. Try to remember and realise that yours is a great and wonderful task. It has great responsibility, but you're given strength, you're given encouragement, you're given a great deal of love.


And many are they who come to you and they will not fail you. For that, as you have often been told... that which we do together is greater than ourselves. We are all servants of the Most High. We are all doing what little we can and as best we can. We are all serving.

So if one remembers this and continues to do the work, as best one, can one cannot go far wrong. But don’t get discouraged.


Anyway, everyone here sends all their blessing and love to you.


Greene:
Mr Thomas?


Drayton Thomas:

Yes?


Greene:

Have you met Mrs Osborne Leonard?


Drayton Thomas:

Of course I’ve met Mrs Osborne Leonard*...

Greene:
How’s she getting on?


Drayton Thomas:

...and Feda. Very well.


Greene:

Good.


Drayton Thomas:

All the old friends; those who helped me so much in the past.


Woods:

Have you been to the much higher planes at all?

Drayton Thomas:
Oh yes, but I prefer to work, in some respects, nearer to the Earth.

Woods:
Oh yes.


Drayton Thomas:

Of course, I have advanced, but I want to use my knowledge and my experience. I want to be of service and help the less fortunate. Now I must go.


Woods:
Well, it's very good of you...


Drayton Thomas:

Goodbye. God Bless you. Bye-bye Leslie.


Greene:
Thank you for a wonderful talk.


Flint:

Bye-bye.

Woods:
Thank you very much.


Greene:

Thank you.

Drayton Thomas:
Bye-bye.


Mickey:

Bye-bye.


Greene:

Goodbye Mickey, thank you.


Woods:
Oh thank you Mickey. Thank you Mickey. That tape will go out...




END OF RECORDING



**Mrs Osborne Leonard =
Gladys Osborne Leonard was a British mediumwho Drayton Thomas worked with for many years
and whose main guide was named Feda.


This transcript was kindly created for the Trust by Coleen Mackenzie – May 2018

and edited by K.Jackson-Barnes.

Please ask permission before using this transcript.