Recorded: September 8th 1970
Note: This clear recording was made almost 50 years ago, and is not to modern standards.
Read the full transcript below as you listen...
[Radio
jingle plays]
Announcer:
In El Paso, KD1380,
sounds like the 70s. KTSM radio.
[1970s music clip
plays]
[Pause]
[Fast orchestral music
plays]
Announcer:
This portion of 'Lets Talk' is
tape recorded, and the tape is played back on KTSM FM at 9.00 at
night...but we are on the air live right now on KTSM Radio, and our
guest is a world-renowned spiritualist. He is from London and his
name is Mr Leslie Flint.
...and Mr Flint, some time ago I
received, in advance of your coming here, some promotion material
talking about some of the things that have happened to you and mainly
they are séances, and you’ve had some unusual contacts with people
from the beyond. This, of course, is the promotion man’s dream. You
talked to John Barrymore after death, is that right?
Flint:
We
have spoken not only to Barrymore, but to innumerable souls who have
passed over, some of them even as far back as 200 years. Of course,
in cases such as people who have passed over so long, we cannot
obviously confirm the identity of the individual. But whereas with a
person, shall we say, like John Barrymore or someone like Ellen Terry
the famous Victorian actress or people even more closely linked or
closely connected with our time, we have been able not only to make
recordings of these voices...and often the voices are full of the
personality of the individual and the characteristics and
idiosyncrasies of their manner of speech, we have tape recorded these
over a period of about eighteen years under test conditions...we have
taken, where possible, these recordings to play to people who were
connected or related in some way with the individual who was
communicating and endeavour to build up a case record, so that we
could get absolute 100% confirmation that these were genuinely the
people contacting us.
Of course, there are instances where it
is quite impossible to obtain sufficient proof or evidence. But,
where evidence is possible, by playing back the recordings to
relations or friends, waiting for their report and their opinion, we
have built up an extraordinary case which I believe is absolutely
unique in the history of psychical research. So much so, that it has
attracted so much public attention, been publicised, published, in
national newspapers in the English-speaking world and even now, just
recently, I had a paper from Paris in which it was reported, some of
the séances.
This is such a tremendous and such an exciting
thing, because over the years of course obviously, there have been
many mediums who produce remarkable evidence of survival of a
personal nature, to many individuals. But with the coming of the tape
recorder we can recapture identically, absolutely, for permanent
record all these séances, all these voices and of course you do have
a most remarkable collection. I mean over eighteen years, I can’t
remember exactly how many séances we’ve given off-hand or how many
voices we have recaptured, but the evidence is so staggering that
only a person who is tremendously biased and narrow-minded could
refute it.
This has really been accepted by people of
intelligence and high standing and whose opinions are valid and
acceptable to the modern world, to the thinking
world.
Announcer:
Now
let’s set the scene; I assume you headquarter in
London?
Flint:
Yes.
Announcer:
Would
you do this in a church, or in someone’s living room,
uh...
Flint:
This is interesting, in as much, that
you should ask me that, because over this long period of time, for
instance when I have been on vacation...living in London, one seeks
the sun when one has a vacation, so we usually go to Spain or Majorca
where we are assured of good weather. Well, I have often been on
vacations with friends who are like myself, interested in psychical
research, and we suddenly decide 'oh, well let’s have a séance
tonight to see if we get anything through'. Well, with the difficulty
of blocking out the light, to the extent to make it possible to
obtain certain results that we seek, we just have to sit under any
conditions that we could possibly manage, and this has meant
sometimes we've even had to sit in the bathroom and I’ve sat on the
toilet seat.
Announcer:
[Laughter]
Flint:
And
ah, [Laughing] but we still...
Announcer:
Who
did you talk to then might I ask?
Flint:
Ah, no one,
uh...well you might think you would get low entities, but I can
assure you that some of them are extremely and remarkably high
intelligences, far removed from the toilet and the lavatory. But
seriously, joking apart, we have under the most adverse
conditions...you see, what I'd like to point out; it isn’t
necessary for a medium at any time, if he is a genuine medium, to
have a set place or a set séance room. This is the tragedy of course
of Spiritualism. I don’t have to tell you that, over the years,
there have been many who have been exposed as being fraudulent
mediums. Unfortunately, this is the bugbear of Spiritualism, and
there are these unfortunate creatures who batten on the bereaved, and
I don’t know that there is much point in discussing that.
But
the point is, that I approach this and always have, on a sound, solid
basis, if you like; almost a material one. In as much, that I see
that to get this over, to give conviction to the world, one has got
to do this in, as far as it is humanly possible, under the right
conditions with scientifically minded people.
Announcer:
Let’s
take a typical situation now. You’re established that you will have
a séance, let us say the setting is London. What would you consider
the right sized group?
Flint:
Oh
well, I don’t really think this is important. Can I explain this to
you?
Announcer:
Yes.
Flint:
That
I can sit with one person, or I can sit with a group of seven
or eight or ten or twelve. And if they were all sympathetically
inclined - this doesn’t mean to say that have by their very nature
got to be convinced. In fact, some of the greatest critics have sat
with me over the years. But also, quite apart from these smaller
groups or individual sittings, in the past I have given séances to
as many as two thousand people at a time; the Scala Theatre in London
and the Kingsway Hall in London, which seats roughly two thousand
people. I have given public demonstrations in practically all the
main town halls throughout England. You see, the size of the audience
is not so important, providing the atmosphere they create is at least
reasonably receptive.
Criticism
doesn’t worry me in the slightest. I don’t expect that a person
who attends a séance for the first time, who knows little or nothing
about it, will necessarily, obviously, be ready to receive. In fact,
I think it's quite true to say, that a person can receive at their
first séance with a medium an extraordinary communication, but that
doesn’t necessarily mean to say they are going to be convinced of
survival.
This is something that you must build up, and you
may go to many mediums and build up a case. You see, to my
way of thinking, this is something that you have to do intelligently.
You have to be reasonable about it. You have to be analytical and
critical, and I think that any medium who is worthy of his salt*
doesn’t mind criticism. He doesn’t mind a person being
very materialistic in their approach.
I have given sittings for people who, from the outset, one would have said that their very manner in which they approach the subject, and approach the medium as a human being, possibly even thinking that he is obviously going to be fraudulent - they approach the medium in the wrong spirit one might say. But quite often, in spite of all that, they may receive, I don’t say they always do, but they may receive the most remarkable personal communication.
Announcer:
Now, when we sit down together, I say we; I mean the séance is gathered - all join hands I assume?
Flint:
No,
no, no, no. This is another thing you see, people, the general
public, the man in the street, who knows little or nothing about
psychical research or Spiritualism as it’s generally termed, uh,
assumes, uh, that, uh, we call up the dead - which is impossible
anyway, no-one can do that - and that we all hold hands and we all go
into some sort of trance, and we sing hymns, and we, sort of, do the
most strange and peculiar things. All this, of course, is derived
chiefly from movies where they see these particularly peculiar and
ridiculous so-called séances, which is nothing like the original
thing.
But of course, there are, let us face it, there are mediums who do extraordinary things and rather stupid things and, in consequence, discredit themselves and discredit the movement. But, from my point of view, I can only speak for myself, when I sit at a séance I treat the whole thing normally, naturally and I hope intelligently. We don’t hold hands. We just sit there, I don’t go into any trances, I'm quite normal. I converse, often when the voices come through and speak to them, ask questions if necessary. If perhaps some of the sitters themselves are rather, shall we say, are holding back or a little nervous or a little unsure of themselves or they’re not quite 'au fait' with the whole subject - then, if I can help, I might ask a question and say 'well, can you explain this' or 'can you tell us this' or 'can you give us more information' and so on. In other words, I treat it very intelligently and reasonably.
Announcer:
How
about voices of the living? How about someone from great distance
participating in this?
Flint:
Oh well, this is,
this, um, this raises a tremendously interesting issue which will
take hours to discuss, um, it has been known at a séance for a
person, who is not even dead, to communicate. And this has happened,
and we have checked up, and we have found that this person, for
instance, has been seriously ill or been in a coma or been asleep or
even near to death’s door. And they have obviously been released
from their body; their psychic or spiritual body is away from their
physical body, and they are in a peculiar sense of neither being in
the body or out of it. They're sort of in a weird, sort of, state
where they can mentally communicate. Because all communication
obviously is mind over matter; communication or thought force
demonstrating itself and making itself heard and this can happen. But
it’s a very rare thing.
Announcer:
There are
famous people that believed in Spiritualism. I think Sir Arthur Conan
Doyle and Houdini. Have you communicated with either these who have
expressed...?
Flint:
Well,
Houdini...
Announcer:
...when they lived, that they
wanted to come back and communicate?
Flint:
...um,
Sir Oliver Lodge, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle has been
back many, many times to his sons, uh, many times through various
mediums. Houdini by the way, you know, tried to expose Spiritualism
during his lifetime. In fact, he was a great opponent of
Spiritualism. He tried to copy and demonstrates certain psychic
faculties or imitation of them, on stage I understand. I...know
little about Houdini. But I do know that he was very much averse to
the subject. But I understand, since his death, he did communicate
with his wife and came through with a test, some test questions which
he’d arranged before death with his wife and got the correct
answers. But this I only know by having read, and I don’t know of
any...
Announcer:
I want to ask another question
sir, and that is, what form...for example, the communication with
John Barrymore, what was said? What did Mr Barrymore say?
Flint:
Well,
now you're asking to repeat something that’s been said a long time
ago which, admittedly, is on tape and is one of thousands of
communications and, uh...What a pity if I’d realised I could have
brought a tape along, and you could have played, say, a few minutes
of the voices of some of these souls. But, unfortunately, it is
rather asking too much of me to remember, identically, what was said
by a certain person, you know, at such short
notice.
Announcer:
Well, let us do this, let me ask
you this; when you sit together and you organise a séance and you
are the medium, is that right?
Flint:
Mmm,
yes...
Announcer:
Do you know who is going to
visit?
Flint:
Oh no. No, this is something which of
course is often...
Announcer:
You don’t ask for a
certain person?
Flint:
No, in fact, I would be the
last person...in fact, I would be furious, quite frankly if a person
attended a séance with me and said I want to talk to John Barrymore
or I want to talk to Rudolph Valentino or I wanted to talk with my
husband. I would say, 'well of course, this is the wrong approach
altogether'. No-one can command or demand who shall come through. I
mean, one could have a séance and one may hope within one’s
self, if one, for instance, is a widow or one perhaps has lost one’s
son, that one’s husband or son may be able to communicate. And,
obviously, the average person attending a séance with a medium is
naturally anxious if it is possible to communicate with that
particular person and they may have that person very much in mind,
but it’s impossible to ask that a certain person should come. This
is one of the big fallacies that people have about Spiritualism that
isn’t so. It’s not possible.
Announcer:
Do
they...let me...let us say that the people seated in your group at a
particular moment or are all knowledgeable in the English language,
but not knowledgeable in any foreign
tongue.
Flint:
Uh-huh...
Announcer:
Will
the guest always be conversant - I'm talking about the voice from the
other side...
Flint:
Yes, I know what you
mean.
Announcer:
Will there always be an individual
who is conversant in English or will they hear a strange
language?
Flint:
No. Can I explain this? That, um, I
know no other language, bar English, nothing at all. I know a few
odd words in Spanish obviously, or Italian or French but, um, I can’t
speak any other language. Now in the early part of the year before I
left England to come over here, I had an Egyptian, well actually
three Egyptians; a husband, his wife and I don’t know who the other
one was, but some relation, and we had a séance. Actually, there
were certain other people present, but these particular people had
never been to England before, and they had contacted me through a
psychical research society and had a sitting with me.
I
knew nothing personally about them or their affairs and during the
session their son came through who had been blown up by, I don’t
know if it was a landmine or what, but anyway he had been blown up
and killed during this recent trouble with, uh, in Egypt and, um,
Israel. And the boy came through and spoke in Egyptian. Now I can’t
speak Egyptian.
Announcer:
Uh-huh...
Flint:
Well
I’m not saying this is a common thing. It does happen and sometimes
we’ll have two voices speaking together, and we've even had as many
as three. But sometimes we’ve had two voices holding a conversation
and you can hear them talking to each other, sometimes it's in the
distance and sometimes we've have people come through who
sing.
Announcer:
Now in the history of the planet,
there have been several billion people.
Flint:
Oh,
yes.
Announcer:
And if you assume that one soul can
communicate then all souls could communicate.
Flint:
Agreed,
of course.
Announcer:
So, you have literally a
source file of billions of voices out there. What dictates, what
causes, what quality of the séance, what power of the séance pulls
through one voice? Is it a common intensive thought on the part of
those in attendance?
Flint:
Well, I think this is
one of the questions which quite frankly if one asks the medium, it
is almost impossible to answer. I think it is true to say, that if
you have a group of say twelve people sitting with you, they have
obviously got their own loved ones; their husband or their father or
their son or their daughter, who they're most naturally anxious to
communicate with. And therefore they are thinking about those
particular individuals and they are therefore most likely, I don’t
say they necessarily will come, but they're most likely to
come through.
But then again, every medium has what are termed 'guides' or people, who have a special work to do associating with that medium, who control the conditions as best they may and, sort of, allow certain people through that they feel will be of benefit or of help or a comfort - or give some information or give some spiritual upliftment to the people that are sitting.
In
other words, there are souls on the other side whose task it is to
organise, as best they can, the proceedings.
Announcer:
Does...do
all individuals have the capacity to be a medium?
Flint:
I
would say the answer to that is yes. Because if you accept the fact
that we are spiritual beings here and now; in this material body of
ours, in this material world, in embryol - which we are; if we accept
the fact that we have a physical body and we have physical abilities,
physical talents, gifts which we can develop and utilise and make
good with; so we also have, obviously, psychic or spiritual faculties
which are dormant within us, which are suppressed, unfortunately, in
this material world, almost from childhood.
We are taught how
to adapt ourselves to material things and material life; we are sent
to college or school to learn certain material things which are
essential for our material welfare. We are even taught to like the
friends of our relations or our relations, and we are taught even to
dislike certain people because our particular relations don’t like
them and so on. In other words, we are taught materially in a way, in
a sense, but we are not taught psychically and we are not taught
spiritually and if we, as I’m sure we have, we have got this
spiritual physical, this spiritual body,
uh, dormant within us, then we should be able to develop these
spiritual gifts and faculties and become psychically and spiritually
attuned into these things which are there all around
us.
Announcer:
Well, how about your own case, uh,
was this a development of your own faculties or was there a
revelation to you at some point in time?
Flint:
No,
well as a child and I think this applies to many, many children. As a
child, I was extremely sensitive, extremely psychic. I would see
things and experience things which I thought were common to everybody
and it was only after repeating, uh, one particular incident that
happened to me; to my grandmother actually, who brought me up as a
child. As I came in from school, I was about the age of nine, and as
I went into the room where she was sitting I saw a woman standing
beside my grandmother, and I could hear the conversation of this
woman’s voice.
And as I got into the room the woman disappeared. My grandmother was just sitting in her chair as she normally did and I said, ‘well what’s happened to the lady?’ And she said, ‘what lady?’ I said, ‘the lady that was standing there talking to you.’ She said, ‘there wasn’t any lady,’ I said ‘there was a lady.’ And I described her and I gave the name that I heard mention and she said ‘Oh you mustn’t talk like that. You’re imagining things,’ you see. Well it wasn’t until many years later, in discussion with my mother actually, talking about this incident ‘oh’ she said ‘well that woman that you saw and the name that you got was your grandmother’s sister who died before you were born,’ you see.
Now
this, I believe and I maintain, is perfectly true, not of myself, but
of innumerable children. And animals, of course, have this
instinctively. I mean you've only got to watch the animal, a pet
animal, and you’ll see its eyes going around the room, travelling
around the room as if it sees what we do not see and obviously, they
hear what we do not hear. These are natural faculties dormant,
latent, which in childhood are often, to some extent, apparent; which
we lose as we become more materialistic and more sophisticated, as we
think more of material things, more of making a living, more of
building up a banking account - we lose the spirituality, the dormant
talents that we possess and, in consequence, we cease to realise
them, and we become more hardened and more materialistic and lose the
spiritual faculty.
Announcer:
Let me pause here to
say that Mr Leslie Flint is here in El Paso under the auspices of the
Spiritualist Church; the First Spiritualist Church which is on
Rio Grande Street.
Lady:
Uh, Grant...
Announcer:
Grant
Avenue, excuse me. And tomorrow night he will speak in Bassett Centre
at 7.30, is that right?
Flint:
That is correct I
understand.
Lady:
That's right.
Announcer:
Now,
is this associated with, uh, religion or this psychic phenomenon that
you explore are separate and apart from it?
Flint:
There
are two answers to this really. I think there are definitely two
answers. I speak for myself obviously. I do not necessarily approach
this as a religion. I believe it is the very basis of all religions,
of all truth. If there is no life after death, there is no point in
religion. Religion ceases to matter. In other words, what we are
trying to do; what such people as myself are trying to do, is to
prove the reality of the life to come, that we do exist beyond the
grave.
This is what all religion is about, all true religion. All religions base their teachings on the life to come; whether it is Christian or Mohammedan or whatever it is. And therefore, as I approach this from the point of view of psychical research, as a researcher, I approach it, in a sense, from the non-religious point of view. But I do realise the religious implications, and I do appreciate that there are many people who feel that, to them, it is their religion and their way of life. I appreciate this and I sympathise and I harmonise in them with them in this, but, um, there is always this fear that I have that in doing this, in other words, making it into a religion, you are separating, in a sense, man from man.
What I mean by this is, that there are so many different branches of religion and I think that, if one may or dare say this; that if religion has failed in the world and it certainly appears to have failed desperately, is because religions have made barriers between themselves. There are so many different branches and if we get back to the basic truths of all religion, this ‘true Spiritualism’ and I use the term true Spiritualism with a true realisation and a true understanding, the realisation that death is not the end, that we are all brothers, irrespective of race, colour or creed. When we realise this, then we are going to do something in the right direction, we are making a step forward. And this is the tragedy; that religions, unfortunately do not harmonise, they separate men.
This
we have proven century after century. It’s being proved today in
Ireland where we have the...which is really a religious war between
Catholics and Protestants. It's nothing more or less than a religious
war, and therefore I think we must get rid of ‘isms’. We have got
to get down to the basic truths which all great teachers throughout
the ages gave to man: the truth of life eternal, that we are all
brothers and sisters, irrespective of whatever our colour or our
race.
Announcer:
Very good. Thank you very much, Mr
Leslie Flint. He is a spiritualist, comes from London; your accent
gives you away...
[Laughter]
Announcer:
And
tomorrow night at Bassett Centre at 7.30 Wednesday evening, the
public is invited to a lecture. Will there be a collection?
Lady:
An
offer, a donation...
Announcer:
A donation will be
collected at the door, thank you very much for coming.
Flint:
Thank
you very much sir.
[Fast
orchestral music plays]
Announcer:
'Let's Talk'
is a daily feature on KTSM, here each day, Monday through Friday. Be
with us again tomorrow as we present KTSM...
* worthy of his salt
= someone of value, integrity or usefulness.
This transcript was kindly created for the Trust by Karyn Jarvie - August 2017