May 1780 - October 1845
The Elizabeth Fry séance
Recorded: April 29th 1963
“If you want to discover truth, avoid men of power”
Please read the transcript below as you listen...
Can you hear?
Oh yes, quite well.
We can hear you.
I pray you forgive me if I do not speak very well.
You're speaking very well...
My name is Fry. Elizabeth Fry.
Oh yes, yes.
Oh! You've been to us before haven't you?
A long time ago I came and spoke to you.
Because I knew that you were so interested in the higher aspects of this tremendous truth and I am so anxious to be of some help and some service. And I know you two are most sincere, and that you are endeavouring to contact people to educate them, to make them understand the realities of this great and glorious existence that awaits all God’s children.
I know that you are doing your utmost. And I am sure there are times when you find it very difficult - but you must expect it! All those who would be reformers, all those who would change man's way of thinking, must be prepared for many rebuffs - and I'm quite sure you've had a few of those.
We certainly have. [Laughing]
What a tremendous number of souls do come to you that are attracted because of your motives. But it's, of course, not an easy task.
We've given up our... We gave our lives up for this work.
I know. One might say it's a pity that you couldn't have done it earlier.
Well, perhaps I'm being unconsciously a little unkind. We are grateful - more than grateful to you. But, [if] only we could make the younger people aware of this, for they are the ones who have got to carry on.
So many people that are attracted to this truth and are enquiring into this subject, are so near coming themselves. It's the young people that we must try and educate and encourage and I am sure you do try to do that. But it must be very difficult...
We do try...
…because there are so many distractions in this modern age of yours and very few peoples’ minds are turned to the things of life eternal. Still, I suppose we must be patient.
What a dreadful word that is: patience. Everyone is being told, I should imagine, to be patient; patient about this or patient about that. But as I see your world today, I’m afraid it must be very difficult to be patient.
The whole atmosphere of your world is so appalling; the conditions are so dreadful. So much has changed since my day. There is no quietude and no peace. All the time man lives in fear - brought about, of course, by his own foolishness. One would have thought that man, by this time, would have realised the futility of preparation for war. That is not the way to avoid war.
Could you tell us something about what happens on the other side; the different orders of that side? They keep on asking us about the other side of life and what happens to these people who make bombs and are out to destroy and destructive? Could you tell us or give some idea of life there, so we could play the tapes to them and give them some idea of that side of life?
Well I suppose that the question can be answered, in a sense, in one sentence: as a man sows, so shall he reap. And if a man in your world, by his very nature and the condition of his life, creates a condition of havoc and unhappiness, if he is, by nature, only concerned with material things, then obviously when he comes here he will find himself on a plane which is, in some respects, very similar to Earth.
He will, as it were, be living, again, a very material conception, if you like, of life. Because, after all, the man has not changed. Death does not necessarily change a person immediately. A person is still, in outlook, very much the same and until such time as man himself begins to realise that he is living in a condition of life that he himself has built, then, until he changes his outlook and his attitude, until he begins to search within himself to discover the faults therein and begin to rectify them, he will be living in a condition very similar, in many respects, to the Earth. He'll be living in a material mental state. Because, after all, that is exactly what happens to individuals when they leave your world. They live in a condition of life, created by their state of mind.
Of course there are exceptions, as there must well be, but the average person who has lived a reasonably good life will find himself in an atmosphere which is congenial and pleasant. He will find that he will have every opportunity to experience many things that perhaps were denied him on Earth.
For instance, you may have someone who, by the very circumstances of their Earthly life, were unfortunately made to live a very humdrum, unhappy, dreary existence. Well, that person, because they themselves have, by their very nature, endeavoured to be helpful and kind and considerate to others, who sacrificed, perhaps, themselves for others, will find a very happy form or condition of existence and the opportunities that were denied them on Earth, uh, those opportunities will be presented here.
For instance, you may have someone who would have liked to have been a musician or an artist, in some way. Somebody who perhaps would have loved to have had a beautiful garden, but were not able to, through circumstances beyond their control, will find that they have a house with a very beautiful garden. Or, if they wanted to become a musician, over here they can so be a musician.
In other words, its a natural law and everything here is run - and if I can use the term 'organised' - although there is, in a sense, no organisation here. There is a feeling that everything is in its place, but there is no conscious organisation. And you will find that here you will have every opportunity to settle and to be happy.
But of course, no matter what condition you may find yourself in, there will always be the realisation of greater possibilities and greater things that lie ahead, because nothing is static here. Everything has an opportunity for change and if and when a person begins to seek and begins to change in themselves, begins to desire things of a better order, so automatically, gradually, they will find those conditions. It's all a state of being, a state of mind.
Every existence in which one may find themselves is a state of mind. It's a state of awareness, aconsciousness and one contributes towards this and therefore you find yourself - the average person that is - in a congenial atmosphere for which you yourself are best suited.
The average person certainly finds, coming here, a happy state of being and great opportunity for knowledge, experience and rest, if it's necessary. There is no depression... uh, the only depression, of course, that one would find is if a person coming here has a great deal that they have cause to regret in their make up and in their life. And in consequence, people do go through a state of readjustment, where they themselves assess themselves, for the first time probably, and they begin to feel they could have done so differently when on Earth and they could have helped so much more than they did.
The very self-centred people find things very difficult at first. But, of course, we must remember and realise that everyone finds, eventually, that state of existence which one could call happiness. It's something which is never denied, but everyone must earn it. And so everyone goes through changes and stages of evolution, until such time as they have reached a certain 'goal', if you like, and probably for a very long time... uh, they will stay in that environment until they feel the need or the urge to go further.
Of course, in a sense we are not conscious of time, but nevertheless, I suppose, to make you understand we must refer to time so that you can have a vague idea.
Although, of course, there are many people who are earthbound; who have never, as it were, really left the Earth, who are very much on an earthly consciousness... an earthly state of consciousness and an earthly plane.
And they are often the people of course...um, who...do many things, which... cause some concern to people on your side who are aware of poltergeists, who are aware of interference. And, um, of course, you do get these souls who are so materialistically minded and who do rec... receive a great deal of pleasure in influencing people on your side - especially people of a weak mind or people who, in themselves, open up, as it were, their consciousness to these influences.
I don't think enough is understood about the Earth souls - I refer to them as Earth souls in as much that, although they've passed from your world, are still very much a part of it. And these earthbound creatures are not necessarily evil - there are a few, there are some, of course, that are in themselves not doing anything that is working out their own salvation. In fact. they are receiving a great deal of pleasure by utilising people on your side.
I'm quite sure that many of the people in mental hospitals in your world are under the influence of earthbound spirits and, um, I think it is a great tragedy that this subject, this whole subject is not better understood, uh, among those in the medical profession. Because a lot of these cases are definitely obsession and there's a great field, uh, for research, a great field there for discovery, a great opportunity for people to work in that particular field where people are suffering from mental disorders.
Because a lot of these so-called disorders are not illnesses, in the sense that you understand the term. They are definitely cases of obsession. And we on this side have many souls who work in groups and bands who do endeavour to help and to relieve and to take away, where possible, these influences.
But you must remember that they are so close to Earth, they are so much of the Earth, but it sometimes is very difficult to do very much about it. I know this a, in a sense, a tragic thing, but at the same time you must remember, that although there is, in a sense, no law or laws - in a sense that you would realise it - there is... what I'm trying to say is that there are no actual leaders, as such.
We... we have an organisation which is so subtle and yet, so natural. Because a person here, for instance, does not, in a sense, give orders; we have groups of souls who do special work, but we all realise automatically, within ourselves, what our part is, what work we have to do and we realise that we are all interwoven, one with another.
I think it is, that we are all very conscious of this oneness of spirit. Here, no one glories in being a leader. Whereas in, for instance, in your world; in religious organisations and political organisations, you do get this, sort of, glorification of the individual.
The first thing a person must 'learn' almost, you might say, if they wish to progress here, is to lose that idea of self-importance. Those who are really progressed on this side never, never give that impression, because it's not even in their nature to appear or to want to appear important.
Everything that we talk about, everything that we do, is done in a complete love and a complete harmony - one with another. No one wants to override another person. All our influence is for good and in love. And therefore we don't have, on this side, organisation as such. We do not recognise leaders in the sense that you do.
And, of course, I think anyone with any scrap of intelligence who really seeks into the truths of the Bible... and these truths are staring one fully in the face and yet, so many people cannot see them. For instance, Christ himself had no intention and no desire to found any religious organisation.
This is completely and absolutely a man-made thing which, over the centuries, has misled mankind, and indeed, I think it's pretty obvious that if you analyse the whole of Christ's teachings you will find that he was the most humble of souls, that he had no desire to form any kind of an organisation, he chose his disciples among the most ordinary of men. He did not try to dictate, he did not suggest in the sense that some people seem to have assumed that he suggested that they should do this or do that.
He gave them completely and absolutely free-will. Free-will to choose the path that they should follow. I think that if people would only recognise Christ, only realise what Christ really was, when they begin to discard a lot of outworn creeds and dogmas - tacked on over the centuries by men who desired power and position; I would say to you above all things, if you want to discover truth, avoid men of power and position. Because they have only power and position because of their material conception of things. You cannot, surely, build a truly spiritual realisation of God on something which is of a material conception.
God is not found, in a sense, in buildings or places. God is found within one's soul, within one's inner consciousness, in all that is of nature...
I don't think that any human being who truly seeks God will find God in something which, in itself, is obviously man-constructed. For man, invariably, in his foolishness and his ignorance considers that he must build edifice[s] to house something which is so much of the spirit. You cannot hold or contain the spirit in a casket. It is something that is as free as the air you breathe, that you must yourselves become conscious and aware of. And you will find that souls from this side, those who truly progress, have broken all the bonds and the shackles and the chains that have bound them, through centuries of wrong-thinking.
Christ realised that the power of the spirit was within all men. He realised that there was within all humanity that oneness and that tremendous power which could overcome all things. Christ was not concerned with material possessions, he was not concerned with material churches or temples, as such. Did Christ himself not turn the money changers out of the temple? Did he not see, in his own time, the hypocrisy of the leaders of the day in the church.
And so it is, that the hypocrisy and the falsity that has been built up around the simple wonderful truths that Christ taught - and all the great seers, the great teachers and the great prophets.
We must try to remember and to realise that if we are to find that great truth that all men truly seek from within themselves, it can only come when they begin to search truthfully and well, within, and endeavour to put, as it were, the 'house of God' in order.
For there is a house of God, but it is not a building. It is the temple of the soul. And we must remember that we are not talking individually, we are talking in a collective sense, because truly, the spirit of God is within all men. It is a force and a power that nothing can destroy. One may lose the body, but one gains the soul.
And as one gains experience and knowledge, one realises the tremendous power of spirit that overcomes all things. Man will only find truth when he takes away from himself the shackles that have bound him for centuries.
God is found, truly, among those who are wise in their simplicity. And it is in simplicity that we find truth - not among those in high places, who, through books and learning and through other methods, have assumed that they are spiritually wise. Spiritual wisdom comes, truthfully and surely, from those who have sought within themselves and found the germ of truth, they have found the realisation of it and they have given themselves completely and in love and in service. But as you serve others you become more aware of God's wisdom and God's truth.
The power of the spirit that is all around and about you, is all the time endeavouring to break through. Those of you who have seen and have known of this, are endeavouring in your own fashion and own way to open the consciousness of others, that they may too find.
We know of the difficulties, we know of the opposition that you must eventually come up against - even more so as you progress. The more anxious you are to knock down the Aunt Sallies*, the more difficult it will be to find the ammunition. But we shall give you the power, we shall give you the love.
*Aunt Sallies = easy targets
But you must remember, that there will be difficulties - beyond, sometimes, your comprehension. It is a great task that you have been set, but I know that you've achieved a great deal. But there is much yet to be done and we need many, many, many people. We need... need innumerable souls and we do seek the young, because they are the ones who must follow on, they are the ones who must carry forth this flag that we have set fly. We need the young people. Try what we can, do what we can to encourage them...
Mrs Fry, may I... may I ask you something?
Yes of course.
May I just recap on what you said at the beginning about 'when you pass over your state of mind is actually your plane of existence'? Now...
In the majority of cases.
Yes. Now, what happens when people like royalty pass over? Now, they're people who have been used to comfort; everything in life, they have no worries of finance or anything like that. Everything is done for them, they don't know what it is to be poor or hungry. And what happens to those people? If you think...
Well, I think the whole story there surely is, is not whether a person has had all that the world could offer - that is, in a material sense. A person may for instance have nothing and be an extremely good person. Or a person, indeed, may have everything the world offers and also be a good person. I think the whole thing surely depends on whether that person, in that position, has truly and conscientiously served to the best of their ability, in the calling that they have been given.
I don't think in a sense it matters one iota* whether they've lived in a palace or in a... or in a cottage. They will find, when they come here, that they will be given a condition of life which will be most suited to them - it doesn't necessarily have to be a palace, because surely there must be many people who have lived in palaces and still live in palaces, who, if the truth were known, are glad to relax in just... perhaps just one or two rooms.
* iota = a small amount
They don't particularly want the pomp and the ceremony. It's part of... of their heritage, it's part of their background and they've had to accept it through birth, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are particularly fond of it.
It may well be that, um...they've accepted it because it is something they have to accept, but at heart, they may be fundamentally very good and very sincere and very humble people. You see, we must not, of course, obviously, generalise. If you are thinking, because a person has been used to a palace, that naturally they would expect or would assume - that is, if they think at all about life after death - that they should have a palace. I don't think it even matters, because I am quite sure there are plenty of people who have lived, shall we say, in a cottage, who, when they come here would like to live in a palace and probably deserve one. And there are plenty of people who live in palaces who, when they come here would also like to live in a cottage.
I think we must not, uh...take this too much on a... on a purely, in a sense, material basis, from the point of view that, um, the reflection of their Earth life would be the same here.
What I am trying to convey is, not what one may be accustomed to in condition of life, but what one has created by the very nature of one's existence for one's self, which automatically you will enter into. And because you yourself, by your very nature have created a certain set of circumstances that bring about a certain condition of life here, it will be automatic and therefore satisfactory.
Um... I know. I have met certain so-called kings and queens. Here, of course, we have no kings and queens and, um, one of the... I should imagine, in certain cases - and certainly is so - that with people of high order, materially that is, who have been used to so much deference and who have been give everything that the Earth seems to offer, there are certainly cases of individuals here who do find, and have found, it very difficult to shake off that sort of atmosphere and attitude of mind.
But of course, that is something that they have to learn. I think it depends, as all these things must do. We cannot generalise. That's why it's always so difficult, sometimes, to give a direct answer to a direct question. Because, in so many cases, uh, one can so easily generalise and you can't really generalise, because what may affect one person may not be the same for another - even though on the surface their conditions upon Earth seem very similar.
We... that is of course another of the great truths, another of the great, wonderful realities of life here; that although, fundamentally, you might say all humanity is the same, what is so wonderful - even in regard to souls here - is that they still retain their individuality. And I suppose, if it were not so, we would never recognise each other and that, of course, would be very tragic, a very unhappy state of affairs for people who are very close to others.
[Flint's dog is heard barking]
I mean, for instance, when a person first comes here, they are, as I have already said, very much the same. And of course, when their relations join them, they are very much the same.
And also of course, we must remember, that the spiritual body is a counterpart - an exact counterpart - of the physical body. That is, if the physical body itself is in a perfect condition or perfect state. If the physical body has degenerated with age or through illness or something has happened to it by accident, it is only the physical body that has those marring conditions, the spiritual body would be a reproduction of the perfect physical body.
And so therefore no one need, for instance, fear that they will not recognise a loved one. For that person, even by the very state of their mind, can so create, as it were, a spiritual counterpart - or shall we say, a reproduction - of the physical body for recognition. Even though they may not be identically like that in their own sphere of life here.
You must remember that all life here is 'a state of mind', from the point of view that the only things that are created are thoughts. Your world is completely and absolutely (apart from nature that is) a thought world. A man is no more than he thinks. All that you have around and about you, that has been created by generations of men, has fundamentally been brought about by the power of thought. And of course we are the same.
We bring with us our personality, our character and our thought ability. We create our life by our power of thought. And so, no one need worry that when a person passes that they will be so changed beyond all recognition. The only change is something which we bring about by our change of outlook and development. It's a gradual process and so gradual that I don't think any generation need fear not recognising a previous generation, because time itself is of no importance. It takes generations and generations of time for people to progress to the extent that they would become unrecognisable.
This is a tremendously difficult subject at times to clarify, because there is so much that we would like to give you - where words in themselves are inadequate and cannot depict or describe. Therefore we can only, as I'm sure others have told you, bring things to a certain level so that you can grasp it. But I feel sure that each and every one who seeks, from your side, that truth that the world of spirit can give, will find - according to their searching, according to their sincerity of purpose.
But when man can release himself from all these bonds, which have chained him down, which have closed his mind for generations. When man can free himself from the ties that have bound him to a creed and dogma, that have held him back from progressing, from searching, from seeking, when man is truly free - spiritually free - then he will discover, then he will open up tremendous avenues of spiritual progression.
I feel that you two are doing a great work. You may be at times inhibited, there may be times when you feel you are being held back, but do not feel for one moment that you are alone. You are always being guided, you are always being helped and there are innumerable souls that are working with you.
May I ask you a question?
Please hurry dear.
This is one query we must refer to, that we see so many little children with no chance in life at all. Living in... in, uh, underground, sort of places, basic places and we see the wealth of this world; there's so much wealth, and yet they seem to have no hope whatever, besides an atmosphere they live in, they become criminals, basically - a lot of them anyway...
Well the person who becomes, shall we say, a criminal, through circumstances beyond their control, is not, in a sense, altogether responsible. And although there is no judgement here, in the sense of the old biblical understanding or the meaning of the term, automatically there is a reassessment and there is that, sort of, realisation that one has within one's self of one's faults and mistakes.
And the whole point is, that if a person has become - I won't use the term evil, because I don't recognise the term, in a sense - if a person has become, through circumstances beyond their control, not, one might say, spiritually inclined or perhaps one has made great mistakes or done things which one may regret, they're not altogether blamed. I think every... as I say, it's all a matter of individual cases - where some people can be blamed, others cannot be blamed.
You cannot blame a child who, through circumstances beyond its control, has become bad-mannered or ill-mannered, who does things that are not accepted and are not the correct thing to do. I mean, we must always remember that people are, to a great extent, the product of their environment. And if that environment, as such, has been created because of the selfishness of the few, then you can hardly blame the individual.
But of course, there are many, many things which take time to... to be brought into reorganisation and change. We understand fully. Don't think that for one moment, that any soul that comes here is in any way judged. A person is responsible to themselves for their actions. But every conceivable avenue is taken into consideration in regard to an individual. But there again, it is not others that do the judging, it's one's self.
And if a person knows when they come here that they've done many things that were wrong, but they realise that it was due to environment and conditions, which to a great extent were beyond their control, there are those redeeming features. And, of course, all that is considered.
I... I don't think that there is one solitary thing that one can mention in regard to life here, that is not just. Everything is just, because everything here falls into a condition of natural law and order. Every individual sorts himself out - not others do it for you. You are perhaps helped or you are often shown the path or the way and advised, but no one can be forced to do anything. No one can be made to change.
A person changes subtly, gradually. They don't suddenly become people of great wisdom, people of great spiritual attainment. Everyone gradually evolves and the worst criminal gradually evolves into the better person, the more advanced person. It may take aeons of time, but time is infinitesimal to us, because we are in eternity and there is, in a sense, no time in eternity. There can be a kind of consciousness of time and on the lower spheres there is this consciousness of time, but it's purely a reflection of the material.
I wish one could explain this more fully, but it is impossible. It's as if there is no perspective, in a sense. For instance, in your world you can see so far and you can see no further. And yet, as you travel forward, you are approaching that which was before out of sight. So it is with us. We have perspective, we can see so far and as we are travelling forward other aspects of perspective come into view, other parts of existence and life that we did not know existed, gradually become within our conscious range.
You must look upon eternity and eternal life like that; a gradual process of going and marching forward and as one is going forward, new vistas strike the horizon. And as you approach them, they become more clear and you see a different picture and a different scene. That is why different souls from different spheres must surely depict life rather differently, one to another. It all depends on the individual, how far they have progressed and what their experiences are.
I think this is, of course, the most wonderful thing; that we can, for a few brief moments of your earthly time, link with you and talk with you, discuss with you - and, as far as it's in our power, help and guide you, and that you are doing this work to help others. Surely it's the greatest thing of all.
Go forward, my friends, in strength and know that you are indeed well blessed, highly blessed, and many are they who come to you.
Now I must go and I leave you with all my blessings.
Could you... could you tell us, we are having a book printed - published I mean - of the people that have come through to us that we hope will do some good. Do you think it will be published? We've sent it to the publisher.
I'm sure it will and it will receive great blessings and be a great source of encouragement to many and give them an insight into that glorious truth that you have also beheld.
I must go. Goodbye.
Thank you very much.
Thank you Mrs Fry.
She was a Miss!
Oh, I beg her pardon...
I'm so sorry, I thought she was Mrs.
Thank you Mickey.
I'm not sure. I thought she was a Mrs Fry actually. But still, she's a lovely soul.
Mmm. She did very well didn't she?
She did talk [very well].
END OF RECORDING
With thanks to Michael Rogge