Note: Although this 60 year old recording has been enhanced,
the mechanical sound of the original recording equipment can still be heard.
Read the full transcript below as you listen...
Present: Rose Creet, Leslie Flint.
Communicators: Dr Charles Marshall, Mickey.
Flint:
[This
séance was recorded on the]...13th of March 1958. Sitter, Rose
Creet. Medium, Leslie Flint.
Creet:
...don't
think about anything Mamoose.
Flint:
I’m
not thinking about anything.
Creet:
Good.
[Short silence]
Marshall:
[It’s]
a very unusual person who can sit and think of nothing.
Creet:
I
beg pardon?
Marshall:
How
does one achieve that Rose?
Creet:
What
is that?
Marshall:
To
be able to sit and think of nothing?
Creet/Flint:
[Laughter]
Creet:
Well
I know the medium so very, very well I don’t want his mind to be
disturbed during a sitting. That’s why I asked him [Laughter].
Marshall:
Well
I should imagine you would not like his mind disturbed at all
about anything at any time.
Creet:
That’s
quite true but that is impossible.
Marshall:
I
see. Well we’ll go on to something else.
Creet:
There’s
one thing I wanted to ask you Doctor dear, which rather puzzled me...
Marshall:
What
is it?
Creet:
May
I?
Marshall:
Yes.
Creet:
When
Akhenaten came in last, my last sitting, his voice was totally
different to when he came the first time, when he took possession of
the medium.
Marshall:
When
you say took possession, do you mean to say he was entranced?
Creet:
Yes.
Marshall:
Well
that may account for it.
Creet:
I
was just wondering, I wanted to ask you about that. But why, why
should it account for it?
Marshall:
Well
I think the whole point is that, um, when a medium is used...
Creet:
Yes...
Marshall:
...their
own idea of things, if you can put it like that, or their own
impression…
Creet:
Yes..
Marshall:
in
some strange way, inhibits or affects the communicating entity.
Creet:
I
see...
Marshall:
For
instance, if the conscious mind or the subconscious mind of the
medium, uh, thinks that a certain person should have a certain kind
of an accent or would expect them to have, the entity who is
communicating probably would adopt that automatically or it would
seem that they assume that. In other words when the medium is
completely ruled out of the phenomena, then there's much more
likelihood of the individual concerned, who is contacting, being able
to come more naturally and speak in a voice, not unlike the voice
that they would use either when on earth or as they would use over
here if they were to speak.
Creet:
I
see.
Marshall:
The
whole point is, that one must get this straight and clear, that the
voice itself really is always an artificially reproduced thing and
one must never anticipate or expect the voice that you hear is
necessarily identically the correct voice or the voice which was
common to that person when on earth, um...so much depends on the
degree of the mediumship and the mentality of the medium.
Creet:
Yes.
Marshall:
The
medium who can completely eliminate himself from the phenomena is
more likely to produce, not only more striking evidence, but also
more likely to reproduce the voice of the communicating entity. After
all is said and done, you should realise that all communication is a
mental process; it’s all thought transferred into sound.
Creet:
Oh
yes, I know that Doctor dear, but I just wanted to know...
Marshall:
...and
assuming...and assuming that every voice that came through to you,
spoke in the same manner and had, or so it seemed to you, the same
personality then I think you could say then that the medium was
greatly concerned with the phenomena. In other words, the
consciousness of the medium was greatly affecting the phenomena.
But when you get a voice which has its own peculiarities, is different in tone and quality and different in its manner of speech, using perhaps expressions which may have been familiar to that person when on earth...in other words, when you get a character come from through from this side that has its own [inimi...] own personality, its own obvious type, then you can be more or less sure that you’re getting a good percentage of the communicating spirit.
But one must never forget, that at any time, there is bound to be somewhere, some trace of the medium’s personality. For instance, I mean it must be pretty obvious to you or anyone...I mean, for instance, I have heard you say to Mickey ‘oh come on Mamoose’ or something, which rather indicates that you’re conscious, in a subconscious way, of the inference or the interference or the consciousness, somewhere, of the mediumship. Of course, there again is an interesting point; there's a vast ‘linking-up’, obviously, there must be, between someone, shall we say, like Mickey and the medium. Where there is such close collaboration...
Creet:
Yes.
Marshall:
...such
close connection between an instrument, a medium, and the entity,
such as Mickey, who is really a control who is always around and
about, who is probably more able to assert himself and more able to
make use of the power of a medium, such as the medium we use, then
you’re bound to get that sort of linking-up. It’s difficult
perhaps for you to realise that the medium, although unconsciously is
consciously...unconsciously linked up with the phenomena. Mickey and
he are very inseparable.
Creet:
Yes.
Oh yes I know that doctor dear.
Flint:
[Clearing
throat]
Creet:
I
was just wondering about...
Marshall:
But
that doesn’t mean to say because that is so, that the entity that
you know as Mickey is not a distinct and separate entity...
Creet:
A
distinct individual, oh yes.
Marshall:
But
you see there is a such a strong link between the two; the medium and
the entity controlling, in this case Mickey, that it is very
difficult for someone like yourself who has sat innumerable times,
not to sometimes forget which is which. In other words they are so
close that, um, its puzzling...
Creet:
Yes
and the word fluidic is very expressive of it.
Marshall:
Yes.
Well I think one must bear in mind
that phenomena, this type of phenomena and for that matter any type
of phenomena, is in a sense a fluidic thing. As I have said before,
its doubtful if one can ever completely eliminate the medium, odd
times it may happen.
Creet:
But
you always seem to be distinctly separate from the medium.
Marshall:
Yes
of course, because I assert myself. You’ll find that any soul from
this side that is an assertive character, personality, invariably
does much better. That is why some people who are more, shall we, say
retiring and less likely to push themselves forward who are, uh,
rather inhibited, um, they find it difficult.
Creet:
Yes
its all very interesting. Mmm...
Marshall:
That’s
why your friend Frédéric does so well.
Creet:
What?
Frédéric what?
Marshall:
I
said thats why your friend Frédéric does so well.
Creet:
Yes.
Marshall:
He
can assume anything he likes.
Creet:
I
know. I was wondering if there was any kind of...
Marshall:
Actually
I think he would have been a brilliant actor.
Creet:
Do
you know, I...he worries me Doctor dear.
Marshall:
I
don’t know why you should let it worry you my dear.
Creet:
Because
he...
Marshall:
Because
sometimes he’s...you know, look I’ll be quite honest with you,
its no good beating about the bush with you Rose you’re too darned
discerning... Some while back I told him not to come so often because
I didn’t think it was good for you, for your blood pressure and
your general health, but he’s been several times under a different
guise.
Creet:
I
know!
Flint:
[Laughing]
Creet:
You
know I’ve been thinking over that Doctor dear...and this
Akhenaten...
Marshall:
You
see, if you get an entity coming through calling himself Akhenaten or
you get someone coming through calling themselves Jock, you accept
them. But what you don’t realise is, its an extra personality of
Frédéric.
Creet:
Now
this Akhenaten...I mean, I was very doubtful about.
Marshall:
Well
there’s no reason why you shouldn’t be. When I say doubtful, I
don’t think you can ever realise it Rose can you, that Frédéric
is one of the very oldest of old souls. He is so old, in as much,
that he’s had so many incarnations, he’s such a developed
personality. He’s such an extraordinary person you know, that he’s
had so many existences and Akhenaten was one of his previous
existences.
Creet:
It
was?
Marshall:
...and
that’s one reason... You see Rose, the whole point is this with
you, you...perhaps, well you know yourself, but a lot of people don’t
know you,
that is people on your side particularly...and there was a time when
you wouldn’t have accepted Frédéric, not at any price. If anyone
had come through and said ten years even, or five years, perhaps, ago
that they were Frédéric Chopin, you would have been extremely
doubtful. You’d have probably listened with interest, but you
wouldn’t have believed a word of it.
The whole point is,
that Frédéric has been to you under different guises at different
times, until such time as you were ready for the full revelation. The
point is Rose, that you are gradually beginning to realise that we
can, at will, assume old ‘shells’ or we can assume old
personalities. You know, the Theosophists are very right when they
talk about astral shells.
Creet:
Yes...
Marshall:
Because
we can, by inhabiting and recreating, we can bring into being some
previous life, some previous personality. We do that at times,
sometimes because we have a very good reason; that is, we don’t
want a person on Earth to doubt us, we don’t want them to have any
apprehension, we want to give them conviction, we want to give them
help in various ways. So sometimes, especially in the early stages,
when we are communicating with a person whom we want to interest and
help over a long period, we, uh, come back as a previous entity,
uh...less, shall we say, famous, less perhaps interesting, if you
like to put it like that, where there's less likelihood of the
recipient of the message, the sitter being doubtful.
With
Frédéric...it’s always been with you, I won’t say a condition
of idolatry...but the point is, that somehow, whoever came to you,
more or less within reason, you would have accepted them, and
wouldn’t probably have had too much of doubt. But when it comes to
Frédéric, you wanted to be so 100% sure
that you were not being deceived, that it was impossible for him to
give you conviction, to give you this state of mind that you now have
about him. In other words, he had to bide his time and he’d come to
you and prepare the road, prepare the way...
Creet:
Yes...
Marshall:
...and
until such time as you were receptive. So it is possible. He will and
he has been, these last few months, coming to you at odd times - and
amusing himself very greatly, I don’t mind telling you...
Creet:
[Laughter]
Marshall:
...under
different names.
Creet:
But
tell me what other names Doctor dear? Do enlighten me.
Marshall:
Well
of course, Akhenaten, but...
Creet:
Because
last time it was Akhenaten...
Marshall:
Yes.
But he’s also been...been to you under this Scotch guise.
Creet:
Not
David?
Marshall:
You’d
be very surprised my dear.
Creet:
David?
Eh?
Marshall:
Yes.
Creet:
David?
Marshall:
And
having a go at me at the same time, damn it.
Creet:
What?
Who’s that?
Marshall:
I
say yes
and having a go at me.
Creet:
Having
a go at you?
Marshall:
Well,
don’t you remember the things that he said to you?
Creet:
Oh
yes!
Marshall:
About
me?
Flint/Creet:
[Loud laughter]
Creet:
But
David was a personality, he was talking about his fiancé who was on
Earth and he was killed in the war and all the rest of it.
Marshall:
The
point is, there are two entities who have spoken to you who claimed
to be Jock. One is the real person, the other is the assumed.
Creet:
One
is the new person?
Marshall:
No, no, no. Oh dear!
Creet:
Yes?
Marshall:
One is David.
Creet:
David?
Marshall:
Yes, Jock.
Creet:
Jock?
Marshall:
Yes.
A Scots boy who definitely is who he says he is. In other words, he
has got a woman on Earth that was in love with; engaged to I believe.
The other is Frédéric.
Creet:
Jock?
Marshall:
Yes.
Creet:
Oh.
Marshall:
You’re
still puzzled aren’t you?
Creet:
Yes.
Marshall:
Oh
dear.
Creet:
Never
mind leave it ’til..
Marshall:
Oh
yes, its very important that you should know. Because some months
ago, a long time ago, six months or so ago, I was very concerned
about your health and I thought this blood pressure was a great deal
due to too much excitement and I ,I, I, I, I did say, I admit this, I
did say to Frédéric and others for that matter, but particularly to
Frédéric, I said it was was wise that he shouldn’t come through
so much because you got too worked up, too excited and, um, since
then, he hasn’t been so often. And there have been long spells when
we have been experimenting, that’s true, but also odd times he has
spoken to you under this pseudonym, this guise, you
see?
Creet:
Yes...
Marshall:
But,
um, don’t be upset about that...
Creet:
No,
I’m not upset. Now you wait a minute ’til I get him as Frédéric
Chopin. You wait a minute.
Marshall:
Now
I don’t want you to lose...
Creet:
Listen
Doctor dear, I am so used to hearing Frédéric come, that I don’t
get excited. I get more excited about things that are told to me,
that I have no knowledge of, that interest me, than Frédéric
coming.
Marshall:
Yes
alright, alright..But anyway you’re much, much
better...
Creet:
Yes.
Marshall:
...and
the nice weather is coming and you’ll be able to feel better in
yourself and we shall get back into our stride. But we have been very
busy with experiments and we haven’t wanted to waste power and time
by talking too much. So apart from that other business of, well,
thinking and worrying about your health...the point is, that you
mustn’t be upset or annoyed with Frédéric...
Creet:
Oh
no I'm not annoyed. I’m...
Marshall:
He
was actually trying to please you in his own kind of way, which
perhaps, from your point of view, wasn’t the right way. But it is
true that he has had many incarnations and he can assume various
personalities, as indeed can quite a number of us for that matter.
Because we can soon tap the resources that are all around and about
us and recapture, if we wish, many past memories and we can come to
you in a different guise if we think it’s essential or necessary or
could be helpful to you. Because sometimes some of our other
incarnations, when retold to you and given to you, uh, as an object
lesson, if you like, can be of great service.
There is of course a little confusion in your mind about David, because David is a separate entity and is not Frédéric, But there has been an occasion when, um, Frédéric has impersonated or come through to you as a Scotch person.
Creet:
Jock?
Marshall:
Yes.
So don’t be...there is that difference you see.
Creet:
Anyhow
thank you for telling me Doctor dear.
Marshall:
Now
I shall probably be in trouble with him.
Creet:
No,
no, no, no, I wont say a word. No I’ll just pull his leg as well,
when next I...I hope he’s not anywhere around?
Marshall:
Well
its alright if he is I suppose. After all he understands you know?
Creet:
But
this has...this Akhenaten, was he?
Marshall:
You
see now Rose, now look, let’s get this from the beginning...
Creet:
I
just wanted to know that...
Marshall:
You...when
you first came into this truth, into this subject, you read a lot of
books, you were searching for knowledge, you experimented with
automatic writing and so on, and you were brought...several
individuals were brought to you...
Creet:
Yes.
Marshall:
...and
they were separate individuals and you came to know them individually
and love them, in consequence, for their qualities and their
interest, um...
Creet:
Yes.
Marshall:
But
those...at that time Frédéric tried to manifest to you but you
refused it...
Creet:
Yes,
thats quite true.
Marshall:
...and
in consequence he realised that if he were to make contact with you,
he’d have to prepare the way. The time was too soon, too early, so
in the intervening period he has been to you to help you, to guide
you, to instruct you and to generally prepare the way for
himself...when he could come as himself.
Creet:
And
he’s done it beautifully Doctor
dear.
Marshall:
And,
um, you have had these contacts and now you have this contact which
you now can accept as Frédéric and the culmination of all this is
yet to come...that is something which we very much want too impress
upon you. That the culmination of all the knowledge and experience
that’s been built up for you and with you and around you, will soon
come into being. That’s what were working on now.
Creet:
I
see.
Marshall:
You
do understand don’t you?
Creet:
Yes,
I understand now Doctor dear, but this Akhenaten was puzzling me and
I had a feeling that it was he, I had a feeling. [Laughter]
But thank you so much for enlightening me...
Marshall:
I
must go my dear, I am sorry but I must go.
Creet:
Alright.
Give my love to Akhenaten!
Marshall:
I
will. My blessing and love to you.
Creet:
But
Doctor dear?
Flint:
[Clears
throat]
Creet:
Was
he really Akhenaten?
Marshall:
He
was.
Creet:
He
was? Oh.
Marshall:
That
should explain a lot of things. For Akhenaten was centuries before
his time, he was a very advanced mentally...a mentally advanced soul.
Creet:
Oh.
Mmm...
Flint:
[Sniffing]
Creet:
Oh
dear. When next I come I hope there will be some talking, because
I’ve got a lot to...
Mickey:
There’ll
be plenty of opportunities to ask as many questions as you like.
Creet:
Mickey,
Mickey darling?
Mickey:
What?
Creet:
Why
don’t you tell me these things?
Mickey:
Well
its very difficult.
Creet:
Did
you know?
Mickey:
Yes I
did, but I...well I didn’t know, I was trying to help really.
because I thought if I spilled beans I’d be in trouble...
Creet:
Well
I found out all by myself.
Mickey:
Well
I think the Doctor knew what he was about and he just
wanted...
Flint:
[Coughing]
Mickey:
...oh
I don’t know, but the point is, why worry?
Creet:
I’m
not worrying...
Flint:
[Laughing]
Creet:
...but
I like to have things straight. You know? It’s interesting to me in
a way because I keep on puzzling, but...
Mickey:
But
surely a straight road is rather boring, one what wheedles around
here and there is much more interesting...
Creet:
But
he’s a rascal Mickey...
Mickey:
Of
course he is, but then so are you!
Flint/Creet:
[Loud
laughter]
Creet:
What
is he doing with me, can you tell me?
Mickey:
He is
trying to help you...
Flint:
[Coughing]
Mickey:
...and
I think he has helped you and he’s trying to...
Creet:
Oh
he's helped me a lot.
Mickey:
...
give you information and evidence and help you along the pathway of
spiritual and mental progress. But of course, it has to be done in
the right way, not the way you think.
Creet:
I
see.
Mickey:
You
want it all lock, stock and barrel!
Creet:
Yeah.
I see, I understand. It’s got...
Mickey:
You’ve
got to get it in pieces, you’ve got to...Besides, look at the fun
in the jigsaw puzzle; you fit the pieces in, you begin to see the
picture.
Creet/Flint:
[Laughter]
Mickey:
Bye-bye.
Creet:
Bye-bye
darling.
Flint:
Goodbye.
This transcript was kindly created for the Trust by Paul Welsh - November 2018
The recording was digitised from the original master tape by Jack Terrence Andrews - June 4th 2008