Johnson:

Extraordinary...

 

Greene:

Extraordinary?

 

Johnson:

I tried to come through a long time ago.

 

Greene:

Did you?

 

Johnson:

I'm here with Jim...

 

Greene:

Pardon? Please could you give me your name?

 

Johnson:

Amy.

 

Greene:

Amy what?

 

Johnson:

Johnson.

 

Greene:

Oh!

 

Johnson:

Johnson.

​

Greene:

I thought it - I thought it was. You've been to us before haven't you Miss Johnson?

 

Johnson:

A long time ago.

 

Greene:

Oh yes, lovely.

 

Johnson:

Ages ago.

 

Greene:

Yes? Well you're doing very well.

 

Johnson:

Still...find this extremely...odd...

 

Greene:

Yes?

 

Johnson:

...trying to talk. Can you hear me?

 

Greene:

Yes, I can hear you quite plainly now thank you, yes.

Can you give me a talk this morning? Talk about anything you like.

 

Johnson:

It's absolutely fantastic what's going on - this business of space.

 

Greene:

Yes, are you interested in that?

 

Johnson:

Oh frightfully, yes! Tremendously interested in it. Well we all are.

 

Greene:

Yes? Have you found - about anything out that perhaps the - the astronauts have not found anything out yet?

 

Johnson:

I don't know. As far as I'm concerned I've never been able to - well I understand no one has really made any contact with other planets - not from this side. It's possible to make contact with Earth...

 

Greene:

Yes.

 

Johnson:

...occasionally anyway, with the aid of mediums and all that. But I don't know of anyone who has ever been in touch with anyone on other planets. Of course it may well be but um, I have never met anyone.

 

Greene:

You haven't?

 

Johnson:

Can you hear me?

 

Greene:

Yes very plainly Miss...

 

Johnson:

Oh call me Amy for heavens sake!

 

Greene:

Amy...(laughter)

 

Johnson:

Where's the other gentleman? There used to be someone else come with you.

 

Greene:

Yes, Mr Woods. He's alright but there's been such - this awful epidemic of flu and he's not coming out (inaudible).

 

Johnson:

Do you mean to say that they haven't found a cure for flu yet?

 

Greene:

No.

 

Johnson:

Goodness me, I'd have thought by now with all the things they're doing, they would've certainly found a cure for that - a preventative.

 

Greene:

Well there's all sorts of things Amy that are really not - shall we say....

 

Johnson:

I'm not terribly in touch with your world now.

 

Greene:

No well you haven't...

 

Johnson:

Occasionally, just now and again, I hear from various people things that are happening, and certainly the world doesn't seem to improve in some respects does it?

 

Greene:

No. We were just saying before, as somebody came through, that man doesn't know anything about universal laws and you're learning about those now aren't you?

​

Johnson:

Oh gradually, yes. If only people did understand more about this business of dying and life after death, and the kind of world, to some extent, that they will find anyway. I mean, I just think it's dreadful. I think it's awful to think that people don't understand this. I mean, when I first came over here it was a great shock.

 

Greene:

Yes I know, you told us that when you first came yes.

 

Johnson:

It must be a long time since I spoke to you, some years I suppose.

 

Greene:

About a couple of years.

 

Johnson:

Is it as long as that?

 

Greene:

Mmm...

 

Johnson:

Time is most peculiar with us, we're not subject to it any more. Time, space, distance - so many things that apply on Earth don't seem to have the same meaning here. There is a form of time I suppose, but it's not measured by the sun and the moon, stars and the calendar.

 

Greene:

No quite. Erm...Amy what do you - what do you do with yourself now?

 

Johnson:

Oh, I've got all sorts of interests. I've lost interest in flying, which I suppose to some people must sound very strange, but of course one doesn't need to. (laugh) Anyway one doesn't need mechanical things here, it's not necessary any more.

 

Greene:

What does Jim do?

 

Johnson:

Oh, well we have many interests. He's tremendously interested in developing himself mentally on to an entirely different strata altogether to anything he ever did on Earth. He's very interested in - in music too and art. He's become much more, I don't know, much more sensitised I think.

 

Greene:

You don't take any interest in flying, you don't take any interest in...

 

Johnson:

None whatsoever now. No.

 

Greene:

...(inaudible) or anything like that?

 

Johnson:

I did at first but not now. I used to come back - not that I was able to communicate - but I used to come back and take an interest in what was going on. But I find now that it just doesn't interest or appeal to me any more. I suppose it is that over here one is able to do so many things.

 

One is able to do things without, in a sense, any effort and one doesn't have the need to, sort of, to go vast distances - and one doesn't have to, sort of, communicate even in the same way. In fact life is so utterly, totally different, that many of the things which seemed important obviously are not any more, so in consequence, one just is not interested. I mean one doesn't feel the urge or the need.

 

Greene:

What do you think now is the most important thing?

 

Johnson:

Oh my goodness me, you mean on Earth?

 

Greene:

No well - er...the most important thing that is now affecting you now, what do you think is the most important?

 

Flint:

[sniffing]

 

Johnson:

I suppose really, sort of, trying and to learn more and to express myself better in various ways. I think the whole thing is knowing more about evolution and evolving on to a different strata, and sort of, opening one's experience to wider horizons.

 

I mean (laugh) I certainly don't think it's got anything whatever to do with material things. I mean, as I've already said, I'm not interested really to that extent any more in material things. One feels sad and sorry about the way the world is and one would like to help if one can. But, it seems to me that human beings will go on and on making the same sort of mistakes and I only hope that at some time they begin to learn something from them and change accordingly.

 

I think the only thing is that [if] people understood this truth, realise the realities of it, I think it could help tremendously. But I think the vast majority of people are completely blind to it, they're not interested. They don't want to know.

​

Greene:

Exactly. That's what we come up against.

 

Johnson:

I feel that, in spite of religions and certainly it seems to me that, often people who should know, don't know. It seems often the blind leading the blind. I don't think people are interested. I think they're more and more materialistically minded.

 

Greene:

And yet, when it comes to the point they - perhaps they're told they might die or something like that, then they get all het up...

 

Johnson:

But everybody knows they've got to die!

 

Greene:

...then they want to know more about it.

 

Johnson:

And nobody seems to want to know anything about it, or very few. And everybody puts it off, you know - doesn't want to think about it, talk about it and know about it. I mean, it seems to me [it's] the most important factors, the most important things in life, that people push aside. I suppose I did - most of us do, indeed when on Earth. Don't you think?

 

Greene:

I think - yes, I think we do. I expect when you were - in those days when you were flying you sort of didn't worry about...

 

Johnson:

Well that's it, I think that when I was flying that - I don't know, I suppose it was being entirely on my own 'up there' as you might say, I had plenty of opportunity and time to think and I did a tremendous amount of thinking.

 

I think that in a kind of odd way, I was much nearer to what you call Spiritualism or the realisation of things, than the average person. I didn't know anything practically, that is from a practical point of view I mean. But now of course by looking back, I realise that mentally I was, in a sense, very much in tune. I was highly sensitised by the very fact of...I suppose my job. It may sound odd but it's true.

 

Greene:

No I think when you got on your own - up aloft - you had time to think didn't you?

 

Johnson:

But that's it, I think that one got away from people, got away from material things - and one was entirely, as it were, on one's own and I think that mentally, in an odd, strange kind of way you were in touch - put it like that. I wouldn't have said that at the time, I wouldn't have thought it perhaps, but it's extraordinary the things that seem to fly through one's mind, you know. And somehow death didn't seem to matter. One didn't feel it either...a most extraordinary sensation. I think a lot of flyers are like that. I think that they lose weight in a sense, material weight and problems seem to drift away from them.

 

Greene:

When they see the vast space in front of them it makes them think doesn't it?

 

Johnson:

Well I think that's it. When you're up there and you see - it must be even more so with these astronauts, I think that, that's what makes it possible for them to do the things they do. I think that one realises the immensity of life...and that it's not just purely physical or material. I think that in an odd kind of way you realise that you are much more than you seem and the body is merely, well just something that enables you to experience. But it's only obviously something that in itself is a means to an end - and that it isn't the be all and the end all. I think that one gets this feeling when you are, as it were, away from Earth.

 

Greene:

Mmm. Yes.

 

Johnson:

I know I look back on my life now and I see things so differently. I think that I had no fear really. In a sense, I think I felt happier away from Earth than on it. I mean of course I had my moments when I enjoyed things but - I don't know, I was always happiest when I was away from the Earth in a plane. I think I was more - more myself and that was because in a kind of odd way I was out of myself. I realise now that this was a psychic experience.

 

Greene:

You had an inner realisation?

 

Johnson:

Yes, well I wouldn't have called it that at the time, I wouldn't have known what it was, but I was really in a sense being more tuned in. I think I was out of the Earth's, sort of, environment and condition and away from the contamination of material things and in some odd way I was, sort of, being mentally and spiritually sort of tuned in. I know this sounds weird but it's true.

 

Greene:

Anyway, do you think um, looking back now on your flying career, do you think there were - now as you realise it - do you think there were times when you were possibly helped by somebody - a flyer say from the other side who had been a flyer on Earth?

 

Johnson:

I think that's fair to a point.

 

Greene:

Like Campbell helped - helped Donald Campbell.

 

Johnson:

Yes to a point, but there again, I think that knowing from judging my own experience of things, trying to help people on Earth is a very difficult thing. You may be able to influence them to a certain extent mentally, and there again it depends on the individual. And um, the state and condition of the world being what it is, it's very difficult for us to do very much. We would like to, but it's not until people themselves make the effort, you know sort of, mentally, sort of, want to be helped, you know sort of really...to have some extent make it possible.

 

All this business of being helped, I mean often people when they are in difficulty and in trouble, they sort of mentally sort of ask for help or, perhaps they even pray for help. And sometimes they're fortunate and sometimes they are helped. But quite often it's useless, because until you open the door you can't expect anyone to enter in. But so many people really, without even realising it, not only shut the door, but put the bolt and bar on.

 

Greene:

Hmm. I know. We've experienced that many times.

​

Johnson:

You see the whole point is, is that if a person wants to find out and to know, then to some extent they've got to, well open the door. You know I mean they've got to sort of have some faith. They've got to, er, answer the door when someone knocks and not sort of, sort of just have it ajar and sort of peep round the corner. They've got to have some faith and open the door wide, so the person can come in.

It's no good sort of just standing there and sort of being afraid and apprehensive as to whether you pull the bar or the bolt, you know, and open the door a bit. I mean I realise to some extent it's understandable that people are doubtful and fearful and what have you, but unless they make some effort, then there's not much that we can do to help them.

 

Greene:

However hard you try to push the bar...

 

Johnson:

It depends on the individual to a great extent. There must be reciprocation, there must be effort, there must be...I mean for instance in any field of activity - quite apart from this being able to communicate, or wanting to communicate and so on, and knowing something of this truth - I mean the whole point is that in every walk of life unless you take risks, unless you're prepared to make the effort to find out and to experiment and to really in a sense sort of go all out. I mean you just don't achieve anything...I mean the whole trouble is that the vast majority of people are afraid, they're full of fear, that's the trouble with the world.

 

Greene:

Amy do you have (inaudible) in our work (inaudible) In our work? Do you know - of course you know what we're doing don't you?

 

Johnson:

Yes of course but I can't honestly say that I do. I mean it isn't that I'm not interested but I haven't felt the desire to come back very much.

 

Greene:

What sort of work would you like to do while you're on your side now?

 

Johnson:

I know this will sound crazy but I'd like to educate children.

 

Greene:

You'd like to educate children?

 

Johnson:

Well yes I'm very interested in children - I wasn't terribly interested on Earth and as a matter of fact children rather worried me. But possibly that's more of the reason why I'm becoming interested now. I'm interested in young souls and trying to help them and trying to teach them. Actually I do in a sense, quite a lot of that work now.

 

Greene:

When they come over?

 

Johnson:

Yes. And there are many young children here who really need help and guidance. And I find it stimulating and I'm able to help quite a lot.

 

Greene:

And how do you set about it Amy?

 

Johnson:

Well that rather depends on the child. What applies to one, wouldn't necessarily apply to another - how you help one child wouldn't necessarily be right for another, and this is another interesting aspect...and in a sense when we talk about children, they're not necessarily always children as such - sometimes they're very immature people.

 

Greene:

Ah, yes.

 

Johnson:

...and we do get people come over here who were very retarded on Earth, and mentally sort of - well not compos mentis. You know, I mean who really are like children. I, I...we have vast places here like lecture halls and places where people can go and be helped. And I suppose you call them kind of clinics - come hotel - come schools - come colleges, you know. I mean...vast places, so vast and there's so much that one can do and learn oneself, even when one's helping others.

 

It's amazing how even sometimes people who you wouldn't think could teach you very much, can teach you a great deal. One learns about life all the time from people. Sometimes people are on a much higher plane or state of being and sometimes from people that, quite frankly, in some respects of course haven't progressed at all. You see that is the joy and beauty of it, that one can meet all sorts of people and all walks of stratas of being, you know, and learn all the time and teach all the time too...it - one sort of feels all the time there's something fresh and new and exciting. Every second, if one can use time you know.

 

Greene:

Oh, you made a very interesting point there Amy. You talk about mentally retarded people coming over, like children. Now does a person, a mongol - you know someone with mongolism - come over as they are, as a mongol?

 

Johnson:

Yes, yes - well no they don't in a sense. I mean they don't suddenly become very bright but um...they are more shall we say...er how do I put it...?

 

Greene:

Not quite so much as they were on this side?

 

Johnson:

Well no it's very difficult to explain this because...the physical side is purely physical anyway, and erm, that no longer applies so therefore they are not under the same condition with the same handicap. But of course there has been a retarded condition...a mental condition and it is this mental aspect that they have to work on.

 

But usually of course they are quite bright in themselves even when on Earth, it's just that they cannot express themselves or their brain doesn't function properly. But it doesn't alter the fact that there is the ability there, there is the possibility and of course here it is all ability and possibility to achieve...er, and of course under the different conditions they are different and they're much more able to assimilate knowledge and experience, they're much more teachable you know.

 

And we don't have the same sort of problems obviously that you would on Earth because that isn't the same physical, material body. It's a rarified body and it is a perfect body. And whereas the person may have had an imperfect body, physically, here they have a perfect body which immediately brings about certain changes anyway.

 

And then of course it is a matter of adjustment with the mind and the spirit, as it were, as one, in tune with the, as you call it, etheric body. It's a combination of harmony you see. Whereas there is disharmony in your world, not only with er, deformed children and so on, but with every human being practically, in the sense, there is disharmony. So this is the thing that you have to do, you have to start to create harmony. You have to become as it were tuned in and this is the hardest part for most people when they first come here. And much harder sometimes for people who have got very strong fixed, firm views and ideas because they create stumbling blocks.

 

Sometimes it's easier for a child, even one that is imperfect and one that er, didn't have the ability to think clearly. Sometimes it's even easier for them to assimilate and become different people and advanced souls, than it is for people who on Earth may have been considered very brilliant and advanced, who are full of, shall we say, false values and false ideas and strong opinions and much more difficult for them perhaps to change and in consequence advance than perhaps someone who was, might have been the village idiot for instance.

​

Greene:

Can you tell when they...why they're mentally retarded, or why they're a mongol? Or they're just mentally retarded...can you tell us what has caused that, is there a reason?

 

Johnson:

Well it's usually physical.

 

Greene:

Usually physical?

 

Johnson:

I think invariably it's physical.

 

Greene:

It's not an undeveloped spirit come to this side too soon?

 

Johnson:

There might be exceptional circumstances or cases where that may be, but I don't think so. I don't think it was ever intended that anyone should have been born imperfect either mentally or physically. I think this is what man himself has created over aeons of time and although one doesn't like the old adage about the sins of the fathers falling on the children, because it all sounds so unjust and very unfair, but then again, if one sees more clearly that one is the product of other people in every sense. I mean mentally, physically and 

every way - not just of one's parents either.

 

Because when you realise you're all sharing the same spirit and that you're all brought into being in the material sense in the same way, that you're all sort of linked up and that after all said and done, I don't think that if...it can be anything else. If generations of people think wrongly, then they're bound to recreate and create wrongly, you know, and they're bound to be imperfections because you cannot think wrong without acting wrong - and the physical conditions of the past must catch up with the present and the future.

 

I think that er, everything that happens is logical in as much that man has set the conditions, created the situation and made it possible for whatever happens to happen. Everything really can be traced back to man himself. I, I think that if you have imperfect children that it's man who is to blame. You may say the parents are perfect physically, but they may be mentally not that far from perfect or their may be imperfections way back er, on either side of the family or both er, which will eventually catch up.

 

You see the whole thing is that, there is no such thing really in a sense, as an individual identically, or shall we say, purely on its own. One likes to think so, but everyone's a product of other people's thoughts and minds, and er, to some extent, physical bodies too. You see once you realise that the whole of the universe is part and parcel...of the other. I mean every individual is part of someone else, and that you are all part and parcel of the same spirit, the same manifestation of flesh even - I mean, it make take different shapes or forms, you have the animal kingdom, but they're still linked up with the human race.

​

Greene:

Yes.

 

Johnson:

And if you treat animals badly, then in some odd way - don't ask me how - but it will eventually reflect upon them, the individuals, it will reflect upon the human race.

 

Greene:

You have to experience what you create.

 

Johnson:

Of course you do. I mean this is law, natural law. In other words you cannot escape from natural law and you're bound to have all these things happen, that distress one so, because man has made it possible.

 

Greene:

Does the law of attraction come in too Amy, I mean a child is attracted to its parents - the soul, the spirit is attracted to that...those kind of parents?

 

Johnson:

Well er...I find this rather an odd question in a way because it rather suggests that um...there is consciousness of the individual before being born, waiting or for...looking for a suitable parent.

 

Greene:

You see...

 

Johnson:

Or parents rather.

 

Greene:

Surely, er, this is not the only world, there are umpteen millions and millions of other worlds and...

 

Johnson:

Well I only know a material, physical world - the Earth - and the, and the spiritual worlds which um, I've had some experience of.

 

Greene:

So actually there's no real...

 

Johnson:

But then again you see, all these different worlds are different aspects of man's evolution.

 

Greene:

Right.

 

Johnson:

And er...if you're asking me is there life on various planets, well there may well be that some of the spirit world is, is connected...or is...or some of the planets are part of this real world, yes. But um, you see we don't quite think in the same way. I suppose man looks upon the Earth as the Earth world and he looks upon the Moon. And now man has reached the Moon, he looks upon that as another world, which in a sense it is but it's a dead world more or less, well there is a form of life...

 

Greene:

There is a form of life on the Moon.

 

Johnson:

Yes, but it's not the same you know, I mean it's um, not life as you know it.

 

Greene:

No.

 

Johnson:

And therefore to man, in a sense it's a dead world, from the point of human intelligence. But um, there are other worlds and there are beings, but they are, as far as I know, beings who...are part of man, er, who are part of the Earth in a sense, although they're separated by...well I suppose centuries upon centuries of time and miles upon miles of so called distance. But it's all part of the same world. It's very odd but I can't explain it any better.

​

Greene:

You see, there are souls in your world with no, who've never been on the Earth at all, they've bypassed here through their evolution.

 

Johnson:

Ah that maybe, I wouldn't know...but as far as I know, of all the people I know that have contacted have had existence on Earth at some previous time and have evolved. It's all, as far as I can see it, that is the meaning of life - evolution. It is on Earth and it is over here, and it's just a matter of continuation. That is why now of course I understand there's no beginning and no end, er, which used to puzzle me and when I thought about it at all, you know.

 

One...I don't think that anything is new in a sense. I think that everything has been discovered, sometimes on Earth been lost and sometimes it's found again, sometimes it takes centuries no doubt. It seems to me that so much is there waiting to be discovered...and it's always been there, I don't know.

 

Greene:

But evolution takes, er, in all different forms - you don't have to keep it, er, as only one, er, form of evolution. Because as I say, they can bypass it and their evolution can come from different paths altogether.

 

Johnson:

It could well be, I mean I...

 

Greene:

Different spheres altogether...they bypass [their own?].

 

Johnson:

I only know that one evolves personally...

 

Greene:

Yes, quite.

 

Johnson:

...as a human being on to a higher strata of realisation and er, there may be all sorts of other experiences.

 

Greene:

But you don't have to come through this Earth to evolve actually, not always (inaudible).

 

Johnson:

But that maybe, I don't know. I, I don't know. I've always understood that the Earth was...I was going to say, the nursery, I don't know.

 

Greene:

Well that can be another point to talk anyway...

 

Johnson:

It seems logical. Anyway I must go. But I'll come again sometime and I do hope um, your friend is well.

 

Greene:

Well he's alright, but he said he'll come up to London...

 

Johnson:

Well perhaps he'll be able to come again soon.

 

Greene:

Oh yes, oh yes.

 

Johnson:

Anyway, next time perhaps Jim will come...

 

Greene:

Oh that'll be nice.

 

Johnson:

...and speak. Anyway, bye-bye.

 

Greene:

Goodbye Amy, thank you very much.

 

Johnson:

Bye-bye.

 

Mickey:

Bye-bye...

 

Greene:

Goodbye Mickey...

 

Mickey:

Bye-bye.

 

Greene:

All the best.