This is the voice of Harry Price, the renowned
British psychic researcher and author,
who passed away in 1948.
He is best known for his investigations into
the haunting of Borley Rectory, in Essex.
Here, Price speaks very slowly at first,
but discusses the difference between ghosts and Spirit people.
Read the full transcript below, as you listen...
Present: Leslie Flint, George Woods and Betty Greene
Spirit Communicators: Harry Price and Mickey
[Thank you] friend.
Very pleased you've come through.
I'm not very sure as to whether you can hear me or not.
We can hear you very well.
Very well indeed, thank you.
Good. Before I commence talking to you about what I feel is a matter of great interest - and I'm sure you'll find what I have to say of some service and of great use - I wanted to make quite sure that you could hear distinctly because it's rather a problem to know exactly how much one is registering. I do not have to, presumably, go into a lot of detail about communication and how it works and what those difficulties are that we have to contend with. These points, I'm sure, you know quite well. But I've been thinking very much latterly how interesting it would be to be able to come and talk to you about ghosts...
Yes, very interesting.
Because I'm sure in the work that you're trying to do - and I believe doing very successfully - you must have many questions put to you by people, and particularly the question about ghosts...
... and since I myself, when I was on your side, studied the subject... and as you probably know I wrote... quite a bit about it - about my... endeavouring to discover the truth of the matter, particularly with regard to Borley. My name by the way is Price, Harry Price.
Oh, hello, Mr. Price.
Hello. I'm very pleased you've come through...
(Interrupting) ...and I'd like to state first of all that I'm only too conscious of the fact, now I'm on this side, how very difficult it is - I would almost say impossible it is - to prove anything appertaining to psychic matters in a purely material way or scientific way. I think we must accept the fact that scientific proof - that is the kind of proof that would appeal and would be accepted, strictly on scientific grounds or scientific basis by scientific minds - that it is practically impossible to prove 100%; and you know science is only concerned with 100% proof. It's not concerned with 50 or 75. It may to some extent accept with reservations, but science is too anxious, I think, for 100% proof on a scientific basis of something which, in a sense, I feel cannot be accepted scientifically or proved scientifically.
But the reason of my coming is that I thought a discussion, a talk, on ghosts would be interesting, and also perhaps answer, as I hope it certainly will - my talk to you - certain problems in regard to them.
One often hears of ghosts and entities that haunt a certain place, often for centuries. And sometimes they are, according to the mentality of the ghosts in question, a nuisance. And sometimes they are very much undesirable from the point of view that they disturb and frighten individuals who happen to be living on the premises. But I think first of all we should differentiate because there are varying kinds of ghosts.
you have the ghost of an individual, perhaps long since dead, that
has no connection with the actual spirit of the person concerned.
What I'm trying to convey here is that you may have a very powerful
thought force which may, by its very power, give the impression that
the individual person or personality is there on the occasion of the
haunting. And a lot of people, when they have seen what they term to
be a ghost, are under the impression that they are seeing the
apparition in outward shape and form of the individual who has long
since been dead. What actually is happening there is that the
individual concerned is not necessarily present. This is an astral
projection upon the atmosphere which on certain occasions (usually
because the atmosphere is conducive to it) manifests itself in shape
But this apparition has no power whatsoever, because the mentality or the mind of the individual - the ghost - is not there, is not present. In other words, it is a kind of a shell that is formed out of the ether under certain given conditions, quite often at certain times, and it has a limited power. It can only move in certain areas and under certain conditions and can only be seen, quite often, by people who are (without realising it) Mediumistic or sensitive to the extent that they can see onto that vibration which is all around the Earth - which is very much used, often by Spiritualist Mediums, to link up and to tune in with spirits from other spheres.
By this, what I am trying to convey is that a ghost is an entirely different thing to a spirit. You might say a ghost - which has no real substance and no real power - is a very strong thought vibration which has impregnated itself upon the atmosphere in a certain given place, invariably because at the time of the death of the individual, their thoughts were so strong and powerful that they left behind a memory condition which can be to some extent tangible, although the individual concerned, as I've since... recently just said, has recently or at some time when the... happening of the passing took place, has long left... since left.
A lot of these hauntings... the poltergeist... has no connection with the individual. It is a condition of the past which has registered itself, registered itself very strongly upon the atmosphere, thereby being able to recreate in a given form, shape and substance of a kind which has no actual physical power - material power - but merely an etheric condition, and cannot under any circumstances do any harm whatsoever to any living person; cannot in any way do anything or say anything or have any power upon any individual that may be conscious of its presence.
You find that in very old houses, castles and so on that these apparitions do appear and not necessarily are they alone. For instance, there are places where great battles have been fought, where sudden death has taken place en mass and the thought force has been so powerful, so much registered around and about that spot, that there are definitely occasions when visually that battle can be seen again.
fact, once people in your world can realise that the astral or the
etheric world which intermingles with yours is in a sense a mirror...
It registers and is able to show all manner of incidences
appertaining to Man's life, particularly the point of death. The
Earth world is surrounded, completely and absolutely, by this etheric
condition of life or substance, such as it is, which contains
reflections of past events.
In fact, one might say that everything that has happened of any consequence, individually and collectively to Man, is still in the atmosphere. Even the most ordinary of people may go to a house with the intent to buy that house or to live in that house in the future and yet not necessarily be psychic as is generally understood in the term 'Mediumship', and on opening the door will sense and feel an atmosphere. Sometimes it is so strong that no matter how pleasant the house may seem and be in many respects, you would not buy it; neither would you have it as a gift, because in that house is a power of a kind which is so strong, so powerful, that no individual would feel happy. The walls are impregnated with the thought forces of individuals or an individual who has lived in that place.
You know, it's perfectly true that we ourselves create our own atmosphere. We are all individuals, and some much more powerful than others; and in regard to our possessions when on Earth - our houses, our places of worship and so on, you find varying conditions. Usually of course, fortunately, they are quite pleasant and liveable. But there are these places where deeds have taken place, things have happened to individuals which have so impregnated the very walls and the atmosphere that it has been left behind - even though the spirit has gone on in the spheres - has been left behind, registered to such an extent that no-one feels disposed to live in those vibrations and conditions.
Unfortunately we on this side - and I endeavoured to find out something of this truth on yours, without much success - know so little about vibrations. Vibrations are always being quoted in regard to séances, and indeed I think science today in your world is gradually discovering much more about vibration: what it can achieve, what it can do, what it is. But even so there's a limit, I feel, to what science may discover in regard to psychic forces; because psychic forces are, in themselves, unscientific from the material point of view. They are so powerful too, and they cannot necessarily be harnessed in a material sense.
house that retains powerful vibrations of thought forces is not
easily altered or changed. Quite often it's a common thing when a
house is reputed to be haunted to call in, perhaps, a local clergyman
or canon or a dean or someone to exorcise. Now, there's no such thing
as being able to exorcise a power which manifests itself in etheric
conditions, unless the individual spirit is present. What can, of
course, transpire is... the only way it seems to me that a change can
be brought about is not by exorcism but by the power of the
individuals concerned, who may live in that building, to concentrate
their thoughts in such a way that those thoughts will counteract the
vibrations in and around the building; that they may release, as it
were, those memory forces, those forces which in themselves, as I've
said, have no substance but are purely mental conditions left behind
by the entity that has gone ahead.
In other words, by the power of thought you can change the vibrations of that building and clear it of its force which may not necessarily be evil. In fact, so much is said in regard to evil influences or evil spirits where, quite frankly, it is very rare indeed that you have a place that is evil (if you accept evil in the sense that it is generally accepted). Individual forces from individual minds create certain conditions which are not always easy to change, easy to alter, but it can be done when you understand more about this subject of haunting. The etheric, the substance - and it is a substance - in which is registered all manner of things appertaining to the past, cannot in itself necessarily be changed but it can be so affected by thought forces from your side, from your world, right thought forces of good, to counteract and disperse something which, in itself, is unpleasant and I would go as far as to say unnecessary.
There is a vast difference between these thought forces which often appear in etheric form as replicas of individuals, but nevertheless, there is a vast difference between these so called apparitions which have no real power than, for instance, to a haunting which is of an individual spirit. And where you have the individual spirit haunting a place or staying around a place or appearing at certain times in a place, that - because it has real substance behind it: the thought force and the power of that thought of the individual - there you come up against an entirely different matter altogether. And it is possible to communicate with that spirit by mind and ask that spirit to leave and to help that spirit; because invariably they are in need of help: they're Earthbound and you can help them.
Borley it was a well known fact - the rectory that was and in the
church itself - the manifestation which was very real, was not of one
person but of two. One was of a nun who for many years had clung to
the place. She had been very ill-treated and had been seduced and her
child had been destroyed in infancy and to keep her quiet she had
been murdered; and also of a monk who was responsible. This happened
many centuries ago and you would have thought that a soul would have,
over many centuries, long since departed. But, you know, this nun
appeared at intervals and she
was anxious - one would have thought after so long a time that it
would have been rather pointless - but nevertheless she was anxious
for the skeleton, the body, to be discovered and also of the child.
The monk himself committed suicide at a later date that was hushed up. This is going back many centuries - somewhere round about nearly 400 years. But there again there was no evil; there was nothing there which could be considered unpleasant. It was simply that from time to time she was drawn back to Earth by thought forces and memories of past events and of the desire for justice to be done, and also this strange idea too, for the body to have been buried in hallowed ground which was then considered very important. Since she herself was not buried in hallowed ground, it held her in some senses closer to Earth. She wanted to see this brought into being, this justice being done; but this is only one isolated case.
There are thousands of authenticated cases of individuals who have seen manifestations sometimes of the individual concerned who is troubled in their mind and wants some matter put right that was left undone or someone brought to justice for some deed that had been done against them such as murder. Most of these cases of which I am now speaking, which are well authenticated, were definitely individuals who were perturbed in their minds and could not find peace and rest and definitely haunted certain places with a hope of either bringing justice into being in regard to themselves, or to perhaps show where money had been hidden which preyed on their mind after death or for some reason such as that.
But there is a vast difference between these individual hauntings by individual spirits than there is to these other apparitions that have no substance as such, which are merely etheric manifestations in the ether of thought forces long since, as far as the individual person's concerned, long since departed.
And you find particularly in places like the Tower of London that there are these etheric forces hovering around the building. And it has been so well authenticated with individual soldiers, for instance, on duty who've seen apparitions without any shadow of a doubt - but they're not necessarily the individuals: they are thought force creations in the ether which at certain given times, under certain given conditions, can be seen, can be even spoken to. It's very rare of course that a ghost speaks. They have not the power of speech. But where you have an individual - that is an entity - who returns to Earth, they are sometimes able to register sound waves or to vibrate sound waves and make themselves heard. They are audible.
Then, of course, you do have poltergeists which are invariably individuals who are Earthbound who do, by the power which they may have under the conditions which they exist in the particular place, are able to use various things to attract attention. But usually you'll find there is someone in that household - quite often a young person - who's full of vitality and power and psychic force, makes it possible for them to become more material in as much that they can either if not be seen, they can use the power drawn from the individual in the household to move furniture or to throw things about. This is a deliberate attempt at communication; invariably not spiteful, very rarely spiteful, usually done in exasperation to attract attention to themselves, invariably because they wish something in that house to be discovered. It may be money that is hidden or it could be, perhaps, even a body that has been buried, perhaps under the floorboards.
fact there are many reasons and very good reasons why some spirits do
return and haunt places, because they want something put right that
is disturbing them.
They cannot, as it were, rest or settle in their new environment; they are concerned with material things because those material things are very much on their mind. They realise that there's something that they want to put right and until it's put right they do not feel they can leave the Earth world - they cannot leave without this matter being settled. Often a person will die leaving money hidden perhaps in floorboards or something and it worries them. They feel that they should have left a will or indicated where this particular money was hidden and so on.
All manner of things cause people to be Earthbound and this is not necessarily a long lasting thing. Usually a person is not Earthbound for a very long time because after a time, if they are not able to get in touch, eventually they begin to realise the futility of trying to do something in a material sense (which often they realise is impossible) to attract the attention sufficiently to make it possible for what it is they wish to convey to be understood and they leave. But you do get the persistent types who will cling and will hold on and they will in consequence do everything in their power, particularly if they feel within themselves it's absolutely essential that it should be attended to or done.
Of course, so many different things can be discussed in this subject. For instance, the apparitions of horses, of dogs, of cats, even of birds: now these apparitions are not necessarily real in... from the point of view that the soul is present. Invariably these come under the category of etheric manifestations which are thought force on the ether which at certain times is visible. These phantom horse-drawn carriages: they have no real substance. But there is a kind of reality in as much that they are definitely seen and witnessed by people on your side but they have no real substance. In fact they are etheric reproductions of events that have taken place, perhaps, hundreds of years ago which are very strong and powerful and continue to register, often for many years.
But so much nonsense has been discu...talked about ghosts. So much fun has been poked at them and indeed one might say in certain instances there is every reason for there to be an amusing side. Of course, there are some very amusing ghosts: ghosts with a great sense of humour. Sometimes you do get individuals who have a wonderful sense of humour and they do from this side endeavour to do things which cause perhaps some irritation or annoyance, but there is a sense of fun; because we on this side, as you know, are not necessarily changed immediately by death. We are very much the same people - that's one thing that I've discovered since I've been here, that this is a world of reality.
To us, of course your world is a world of illusion in as much that so much that goes on, that you accept as factual and real, to us is very unreal apart from being factual. This is the world of reality and we have the attributes and we have the defects often that we may have had on Earth. We don't suddenly become angels and we do see the funny side sometimes of the goings on in your world, particularly with individuals that we're fond of. And you do find at certain times peoples come back from this side and they enter into your life, take an interest in what you're doing and, of course, they can see more deeply than people on your side can see into the hearts and minds of others.
And they do see things which possibly the individual concerned endeavours to hide very carefully from others, very successfully, but we see the full person. We don't see just a facade. We don't see what people would like others to see and ignore the rest. We see everything and we have a sense of fun. And sometimes individuals from this side who are by no means bad souls do do things to try and jerk people in your world out of themselves, to make them conscious of things which are more important, and also to make them think and act differently in their own personal lives.
Most of the things that go on around and about your world, what you term hauntings, there is a reason and a purpose. And sometimes it even strikes us as rather funny when a clergyman starts to try and exorcise because, quite frankly, no-one has the power to exorcise. And in any case I'm quite sure the average clergyman hasn't a clue about this whole subject. In fact, quite a number of clergymen have the vaguest notions about communication, about spirits. In fact, as you well know the average Church man is very ignorant of the truths of life after death. He has a vague belief which may be to him a reality but he has no substance behind it to prove his statements. We come often to jerk out of themselves these very people who would exorcise us. Actually sometimes a haunting that may take place is deliberate in as much that it may bring in the clergyman and make him try to do something about it; but much more important to make him think more seriously about it - make him think more seriously about the possibilities of life after death and communication; to try and make him know there is something in the truth of survival.
A lot of things that go on which sometimes seem a little bewildering are done deliberately by our side. The apparitions that one sees occasionally, as I've already said, may be etheric remembrances of things past registered upon the atmosphere with no deep substance or reality of individual life. But a lot of the individual hauntings by spirits - apart from those who come because they wish to have something put right - a lot of it is done by souls from this side with the deliberate intention of arousing interest at certain times and at certain places to bring all manner of people to the realisation that there is something outside of your normal so-called existence. And if we can bring the Church into it, who preach so much about life after death, and make them think more seriously about it and the possibility of communication as well, then we're doing a jolly good job.
You know we use all manner of methods, all manner of ways, for trying to bring realisation and truth of survival to the world and hauntings are quite often something which to us is a method and a way of arousing interest. And if we can get the local clergyman or the canon or whoever he may be into the house or into the place and get a lot of newspaper publicity about it, then we are setting people thinking and wondering and also the parson himself (if it's possible to make him realise that he is also being used as a Medium), making him think about survival and communication, we're on the right track of infiltrating truth in all directions. So there are many reasons for this.
Mr. Price, may I ask you something?
Is it not right that some of those Earthbound spirits are actually Earthbound through sheer ignorance; through wrong teachings of the Church? They know nothing about an afterlife and don't realise that they've passed over.
Well, of course, there are these cases of individuals who are Earthbound because of ignorance and because they're held so much down by material thoughts within themselves. I mean they're such materialists in life that they cannot fail to be - although in a sense apart from the Earth - materialists still and they cling to those things they know and those conditions that they like and for a time they live in a kind of illusionary world. They seem to have pleasure and fun and happiness of a kind out of making other people do the kind of things that they like doing. In other words, of course, they sometimes impinge themselves on individuals in your world and use them often for their own ends and that, of course, is bad and could in some instances be dangerous.
You see, as I've tried to explain, there are all manner and forms and conditions appertaining to hauntings, appertaining to apparitions and spirits. We want very much if we can to give a much clearer picture of this because it's a very important thing for people on your side to know about.
Why is it when there is a spirit around - I mean not one of these etheric forms but a proper one - why is it the atmosphere goes icy cold?
I don't really know why it should necessarily go icy cold.
I don't know whether in the process of drawing energy and power from, perhaps, individuals on your side to make the manifestation possible that... um... they may be taking some... something from the atmosphere which gives warmth. I don't know. I really can't say, but it's a feasible solution. But the point is that there is always this, I believe... and I have experienced it when on your side... of the coldness and the feeling as if there is something not normal or natural. But this may be due to a mental thing more than a physical - it may be a mental process which has a physical reaction and the coldness is the reaction that you have. It may not be that the temperature changes; it may be an illusionary thing of change in temperature. Although it has been ascertained I believe by... by scientific - a so-called scientific method - of noting that the atmosphere has dropped... temperature has dropped.
But I must, if I may, like to discuss this much further with you at some later date because there's so much in this which would be of help and interest to many and also would help certain souls on this side who are often in need of help. As you've already said there are these Earthbound souls who cling to individuals and use those individuals and often detrimentally. Anyway, I hope I haven't bored you.
No, not at all, Mr. Price. I'm very pleased you've come on that subject. But there is one thing I'd like to ask you, Mr. Price, before you go if I may?
What is that?
Well, Sir William Crookes - you know, there's been something not very nice written about him. Could you just enlighten us on this subject? Because he was a famous scientist, wasn't he, and a good scientist?
Well I don't really know very much about this but I've heard certain things said and I think that the best thing to do, although I suppose it is not always easy to do... Things were said about me that weren't very complimentary. But there will always be those who will, if they can by one means or other... some means or other... they'll use foul means to blacken the name of a person who has done so much to progress science and truth. I suppose one could say the best thing is to ignore these things because they will be accepted by the kind of mentalities that want to accept and discarded by those who are not of the same mentality. It's a problem but...
(Interrupting) Because he was a famous man, wasn't he? He was a wonderful man.
Well, you know, there's an old Chinese proverb - I think it's Chinese - "the tall trees gather the most wind". I think that's perfectly true. The more high you become or the more famous you are, the more you become an 'Aunt Sally'. I don't think I should worry too much about it because truth will out eventually. And in regard to any criticism of a moral nature which I believe was suggested with regard to Crookes, well I think one can ignore that; and that he would be party to something which was, well, fraudulent is ridiculous.
Yes, of course it is.
He wouldn't risk and stake his reputation on something of that nature.
A man who's got so much to loose - a good name, would not be party to anything unless it was completely honest and straightforward. I think it's so stupid - any intelligent person would refute and disagree with such a ghastly thing.
Yes. Thank you very much.
Anyway, I must go. May I take this opportunity of wishing you a happy Christmas?
Thank you, Mr. Price, very much indeed.
Yes. Well, thank you very, very much indeed.
A happy Christmas and a very pos...prosperous New Year !
I hope we do, Mickey.
Yes. Thank you. And I hope you do too.
Bye bye, Mickey.
And I hope the spirit of Christmas will be with you...
Thank you, Mickey.
Thank you, Mickey, very, very much.
...and I hope Marley's ghost won't turn up ! Bye bye.
And a happy Christmas to you, Mickey.
Bye bye Mickey. Thank you.
What's he say about Marley's ghost ?
Marley's ghost. That's 'Scrooge'.
END OF RECORDING
This transcript was kindly supplied by a good friend of the Leslie Flint Educational Trust, Mr Simon Lovelock.