The Leslie Flint Educational Trust

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The Mahatma Gandhi séance


Recorded: June 21st 1961


"Death is something which in your world is taboo. 


People are afraid to mention the word; 

they do not like to think about it."


So says Mohandas Gandhi in this unique séance recording...
 


Note: This audio runs a fraction faster than when originally recorded.

 

Read the full transcript below as you listen...



Present: Leslie Flint, George Woods, Betty Greene. 
Communicators: Mohandas Gandhi, Mickey.



Gandhi:
[I am very pleased]...to come here to speak to you.


Woods:
Yes.

Gandhi:
How do you do?

Greene/Woods:
How do you do?

Gandhi:
It is great pleasure for me to come here and talk with you. I hope you can understand that which I say?

Greene/Woods:
Yes.


Gandhi:
Recently, you were discussing me... and in consequence, it give me a very great pleasure to come and talk to you.


Woods:
Yes.


Gandhi:

My name is Gandhi.


Greene:
I beg your pardon?

Gandhi:

I am Gandhi.


Greene:
I'm sorry I don't...


Gandhi:

I am Gandhi.


Woods:
Gandhi? Oh Gandhi. I'm...oh, I'm very pleased you've come. Very pleased.


Gandhi:
I...uh...I listened to conversation with your friends; Mr and Mrs Conacher.


Woods:
Oh yes?


Gandhi:
They are very interested in my work and my country.


Woods:
I know...I know they are.


Gandhi:
I was very interested in them, because they have such desire to assist the people of your world, to greater knowledge and greater realisation and understanding of God's purpose for his children.


Woods:
Yes...

Gandhi:
You also have similar belief, similar interest. In consequence, it give to me great happiness to be able to speak to you today on this point.


I understand how anxious you are to serve God, to serve the children of the Earth, to bring to them enlightenment concerning these truths; which are universal.


Woods:
Yes...


Gandhi:
We are conscious, on this side, of the great need for a realisation of God's will and purpose - and you are the disciples; like Mr and Mrs Conacher.


You are disciples; inasmuch that you strive to infiltrate into the minds of the people of Earth, these truths, which are the foundation of all religions.


[There are] many religions in your world which bring great confusion and often great distress to the lives of humanity.


There are many biases that have been created by man's foolishness and ignorance, because of his wilfulness and his desire for personal position, personal...and also national pride.


Until man realises they are all of the one family, that there is only one religion; universal religion, which is truth...


Man himself has created barriers in his ignorance and his desire for personal aggrandisement and because he considers that his knowledge is perfect, whereas other people's knowledge is imperfect, whereas his religion is the only true religion and other religions are false.

There [is] only one truth. That is the foundation of all religions.


In essence, man has built around his barriers [in] religion, many falsehoods, many creeds, many dogmas, and in consequence there is between, not only religions, but between nations; great differences of opinion, great differences, in such a...a way, that it creates unhappiness for many people.


In the world there is great poverty and ofttimes the poverty is due, not only to ignorance, but also due to personal pride, personal desire for the individual who is in the position to suppress.

Often religion, unconsciously sometimes, is at the back of a great deal of the world's unhappiness. Religions become strong and groups of individuals create for themselves great mass of wealth, which is used, not for the poor, not for the underfed, not for the downtrodden, but for the personal aggrandisement of a few, not only outside religion, but inside it.


And where there is great strength in religion, often there is the greatest weakness. Those religions who amass great wealth are ofttimes far removed from the truth. I have seen this in so many different ways.

When I was on your side and since I have been here, I have seen through the hearts - into the hearts of many of these people who are in, so-called, high places, in high positions, and they are not concerned with the good of humanity. They are concerned with their personal pride, their personal idea of what they consider to be truth, and ofttimes they are far from truth.


It is our desire, all of we who come, that we shall, in time, break down these barriers that man has created in his foolishness. I am very concerned that you and others like you, should be the propagators of this great revelation which is so essential to the happiness and the welfare of the world.

Today your world stands on the bridge, as it were, of destruction. Any time that bridge, which in itself is so unreliable, that it is doubtful if it will sustain the weight that is placed upon it. Because man himself, unconsciously and in some ways consciously, has brought into being such a condition of confusion, such a condition of hatred, of intolerance.


There is so much intolerance that is placed upon the world through man's foolishness. Unless something is done very soon, I can see that the weight of man's foolishness and ignorance, combined with his lack of spirituality, will destroy the very bridge that enables man to reach, in safety, the shore of peace and happiness.

We on this side, for a long time, have striven to build between our world and yours, a bridge - whereby man could climb to heights and find that peace which your world could give. We know that it is only in this truth, only in this realisation of communication, between the so-called dead and the living, that lies the salvation of your world.


All history repeats itself. History itself shows the very foundation of man's happiness, is in the knowledge and the realisation of the life that is to come. The Earth life is but the training ground, it is but the school in which man must learn the lesson which will, in consequence, give him the opportunity to inherit the kingdom of the living Father.


There is so much ignorance in your world, so few are students, so few are prepared to learn, so many are selfish and wilful, and foolish in the extreme.


You, my children, are prepared to be good students, you are prepared to learn. But there are many, many souls who are not prepared to learn, who are not prepared, in any shape or form, to make any sacrifice. Those who would serve God must be prepared to sacrifice, if necessary themselves. And there are few who are prepared to sacrifice.

In all of the religious organisations, as you term them, in all the creeds that you have, in all the different nationalities, there are, here and there, good souls, who are sincere. But unfortunately many can only conceive truth from their own limited, narrow aspect. They are not prepared to have their mind open and to be free and receive inspiration.


They accept only that which only they have for so long accepted and believed. To them, God's revelation is a closed book. That what they know has been revealed to them and that only. They do not realise that all through time there have been great prophets, there have been great seers, there have been great teachers, great philosophers, great souls.


And all these souls have, in many instances, if not all instances, sacrificed themselves willingly on the alter of love, for their fellow human beings. There are few in the world today who would be prepared to sacrifice themselves.

To them, their religion is something that gives to them, perhaps in a narrow sense, a kind of peace. But it is not the real peace. It does not give to them the realisation that we strive to give to you. They are often false, even to themselves and even to that which they profess to believe.


It grieves us when we see how in your world there so much malice, so much hatred, so much intolerance, so much unhappiness, so much fear, so much doubt. Your world is full of fear: fear in its religious aspect, fear in its realisation, as it feels, of the things that they know.

There is no security in the minds of the masses of people. Even those who profess their particular brand of religion, many of them doubt even that which they accept or profess to believe. There is very few people in your world who have truth that can make them free - for the first thing that truth shall do, when you have truth, is that it gives you a freedom of mind. 


You are then able to receive more truth and more truth, and that accumulation of truth brings to you a security and a peace of mind that transcends all things - you have no more fear in your heart and you are then able to battle against the world as you have to exist in.


There is much we want to release man from; above all, fear. Life in your world is full of fear. People fear so many things.

Why is it today there is so much fear in your world? Because man has not learned the path. There is only one real path. It is the path of the spirit, and there are few people who follow that path. There are some who profess it, there are some who endeavour it, but there are few who succeed on it, because they cannot forget themselves.


The first lesson one must learn is to forget one's self. To give out in love all that is possible from within yourself, and it shall be returned to you. These things that Christ spoke about, and all the great teachers, and all the great philosophers down through the ages, was that man himself should forget himself, that he in return might find himself.


When you lose yourself in a sea of love, then indeed do you find that you lap again the shores. It is as if you cast yourself into the cleansing power of the eternal sea of love, and you do not become drowned, but you become, as it were, lifted up - buoyed up by it - and you are carried by it, and in consequence, your work then begins. And many a shore you may be cast upon, and you will enable others to find that which you have found.


Believe me my friends I know, there is only one way, and it is a way of love. When man forgets himself in love and in service, then he begins to live, then he begins to perceive God and his purpose for him. Then you are shown your path, and how you can live it, and what you can do with it, and how you can enable others to find it also.


The first law is to love thy neighbour more than thyself, and in doing this, you begin to live for the first time. You begin to breathe the air of freedom and you find the strength, given to you to combat all the evils of your world.


Those who have been given the task to do God's will, have always first had to learn to forget themselves. I, in common with others, was not concerned with house, with clothes, with position, was not concerned with money - and yet it was provided in love, by others who saw in me, as they did in other disciples of past ages, they saw a path to God, a path which...in which they could help others to find peace and happiness.

There were some in your world, as indeed even today, consider that my desires were for power and yet I had no power, only through love, over other people. I desired nothing for myself. But there were those who said that my interest was not for the good of others, but for myself. There were some who said my motives were political. All these things were not true.


I was only concerned with the good of humanity, throughout the world, not only in my own people. Of course I had a duty, as I saw it, to my own people - to lift them out of that condition in which they found themselves; to try to better them, in a sense perhaps, materially, but nevertheless my fundamental interest was to better them spiritually.


I realise the many differences in my country among the peoples, in religion especially. It was a great barrier. Then again some people consider that I came to found a kind of new religion. This was not true.

It was only through my meditation and my prayer and, if I may be allowed to say so, my humility, that I was able to receive the strength and the inspiration to carry on; often against sickness, against ill health and difficulties of which you know nothing.


But I say to you my children, if you will follow in the steps that the great masters and teachers have shown in the past, they who have sacrificed much in love for their fellow creatures, you will enable us, through you, to do a great deal to alleviate suffering in the hearts of many people.


We must not expect to completely change the face of the world so soon. This I realise is not possible. No one on this side can anticipate such a wonderful thing. It will take a long time, but we need, like you, disciples here and there who will bound together and strive with us to make this a possibility. It is the few who will save the many, my friends.

We are very concerned with your world today. It does not get better, it gets worse. Much worse. It only needs a touch of a finger to set your world ablaze. This I do not think needs expressing too strongly. It is obvious. There is too much fear in the world.


What is the basis of this fear? Is it for the good of the human race? Because certain people's fear another nation? No. It is because they fear the lack or loss of their own way of life, because they fear they may lose their power and strength in the world. All these things are based on material motives, not spiritual.


They will give to you an interpretation that is spiritual on the surface, but when you dig down, you find that the roots are buried deep in the Earth, in the dross material. They are not concerned with human beings as such. They are concerned with power. They are concerned with money, with investments. They are concerned with the strength of the material, not the spiritual.

If we could change the outlook and the thoughts of these people in high places and make them see the true values. But if there is to be peace in your world there must be harmony, there must be balance. We do not expect in your world that you can exist without material things. But man is concerned only with material things. He does not consider the spiritual.


No one, hardly, is concerned with spiritual things. It is always property, estate, shares, money and all the things that consist of the Earth. Whether it is this nation or that nation, I do not differentiate between them. I do not advocate one creed or shall we say, I do not advocate one particular political belief beyond another.


I see fundamental good in all, but I do see that in the, so-called, defending of this particular political creed, untold millions of people can be brought to a hasty death, unprepared for a new life, full of error in their hearts and in their characters, and that would be disastrous.

No one could win such a war, whether it is those who live on Earth or those who come here through it. We see only utter destruction, utter desolation, utter unhappiness for those that would remain and those who would come here.


For there are few who ever come here that are prepared for death. Death is something which in your world is taboo. People are afraid to mention the word; they do not like to think about it. They run away from it. It is something they are a-feared of, because they know deep in their hearts that it is a reality that they must face eventually.


And they are a-feared of it because they are knowing in themselves they are not fully prepared for it. They know so little about it and they are afraid to find out. Fear dominates the hearts and minds of men, and we know that unless something is done about this, before it is too late, the disastrous consequences are so tremendous, that one hardly dare think about it.

Your responsibility is great. The more knowledge you receive, the more realisation that you have of these things, these truths that we give you, the greater your responsibility. It is not an easy task you set yourselves. I assure you it will not be easy to do this work.


Indeed, I know you have found it has meant many sacrifices. But then again, I know you do not mind, because you love to serve. It is this love to serve, this this desire to serve, that matters. In this serving, you find your salvation, as thousands have done in the past.


But at this present moment the most imperative thing, at this present moment, is how to save your world from disaster. Because I assure you, there are two great nations in your world who have such fear, that in that very fear, they can destroy not only themselves, but the rest of the world or much of it.

It is this terrible fear, this feeling that you are sitting on the very edge, as it were, of the precipice, and it only needs the touch of a finger to push you over. This is something which is so terrible.


After you have had such disastrous wars and man has suffered so intensely, you would have thought that he would have learned. But no, he becomes even worse. He makes for himself a living hell - because all of time he thinks only and solely materially. He does not envisage anything in a spiritual sense.


Your religious organisations, your different religions, do little to alleviate this condition. They sometimes talk about it [and] how terrible it is. But they uphold the way of life as they see it, of their particular nation, as much to say, 'if the worst comes to the worst, we are justified in defending our way of life'.


Knowing in their hearts there is much evil in their way of life, nevertheless they say it, 'oh well, it is the worst...lesser of the two evils'. And yet they know the destruction that would come upon the world as such that it is terrible to think about.

There is good in all. That I do not deny. In all hearts there is some good, and fundamentally I suppose really, in the hearts of the mass of people, they only desire peace. But they are so doctrined in so many different ways; they are like sheep that are lead to slaughter.


They are given the idea that they are always right, but ofttimes they are often wrong. This terrible fear, this realisation that must eventually come to man, that he cannot live by fear, but only by love - this is our task, this is our responsibility that we have to give to the world.


The realisation that love conquers all, it is the oldest creed, it is the oldest truth in the world; that it is by love that we conquer, not by hate. The power of love is tremendous and this power of love makes possible our coming down to you, to converse with you.


This power of love gives us the strength to combat the evils of your world. This power of love makes possible for you a new life. For when you depart from yours, you enter into the kingdom of love, and then, if you are not ready because there is not enough love in your heart, then you have to learn to adjust yourself and you have to work very hard.


It is better to know these things when on Earth, and when you come here you are ready and are received in love. Be of good faith....

Woods:
Gandhi? Can you hold on a little. Oh he's gone.


Greene:
Was it Gandhi George?

Woods:
Yes.


Greene:
I didn't think it was...He wasn't familiar...


Woods:
That was Gandhi.


Greene:
A marvellous talk.


Woods:
Yes...


Gandhi:
Be of good faith. For as Christ has said, 'thy faith shall make thee whole'.


Woods:
Excuse me, it was Gandhi that was speaking wasn't it?


Gandhi:
It is Gandhi.


Greene:
Oh thank you Gandhi...


Woods:
My mother knew you in India. She was living...was born in India, at Kalki [?]
She remembers you coming, somewhere there.


Gandhi:
My friend, many people knew me and I knew many people.


Woods:
She admired you greatly for your work.


Gandhi:
Thank you very much. Thank you very much.


Woods:
Very much.


Gandhi:
But remember, if I do not remember myself, many names.


Woods:
No. She didn't know you personally, but she used to come and listen to you, out there.


Gandhi:
I think more and more of the past, in its reflection of the present and the future. The past is like that which is in the mirror. It is the reflection of the reality. The reality is the present and the future that is to come. We do not see at the time our true selves when we look into the mirror. Things are reversed ofttimes, and we do not see with clarity into the heart.


Woods:
I think the whole world looked at you for a lead really. In...


Gandhi:
The whole world is in great need of leaders - spiritual leaders. At the present moment it is being lead, not by spiritual leaders, but by material ones. And even they, some, are not outside the church, but inside. I do not wish that I would be misunderstood, that I have in my heart any enmity or any ill will. That does not exist now at all in my nature.


But I do say - because now I can speak fully in truth and therefore am not afraid to state what I feel - that I know that until many people, particularly those in high places in politics and in the church, until they change their hearts and their way of thinking, they cannot save your world from destruction.

The church has great power and do many things, but it must remember that the Christian church is not the only church. It is not the only faith, it is not the only way. Indeed, the Christian church is small in comparison to the tremendous numbers of people who are outside it.


Remember that it is not in a church, it is not in a creed, it is not in a dogma, that truth is found. Truth is found only by searching within oneself, as Christ said, and the realisation that you are part of a divine plan, that you are part of God's purpose, and that you should forget yourself and then you can begin to serve.


Unfortunately, the majority of those who proclaim to be leaders have not forgot themselves, but only remember themselves - and that is why they are in the position that they are in. Not because of their merit as spiritual beings, but because of their merit as material ones, and that is the weakness of your world. That is where the strength of your world is diminished.


It is not true strength that you have in your world because your leaders are who they are. Your leaders have risen to [a] high place not because of spiritual motives or spiritual love for the mass of humanity, but only because they are concerned with material position, material power and substance.


The strength of life, the strength of happiness, of joy, the strength of knowledge, peace; all the good qualities exist only when you forget yourself. These people have not forgotten themselves. They have made themselves only because they have striven materially for high places. They have not denied themselves.


Ofttimes they have approached high places by 'graft', as you say, and also by under-handed methods, where they have overcome what they have thought to be obstacles, not concerned with individuals. They are concerned with themselves. And while there is selfishness and intolerance, while there is hatred and malice in the hearts of men, those shall be the men who rise in high places and bring destruction upon your world.

The true leaders are the ones of the spirit, the ones of the mind. They are the ones that you should look to for the salvation of the world and the joy and happiness that should come. I assure you that your salvation lies not in politics, not in politicians, not in people in high places in church and in creed and dogma - but in true, sincere, honest people, who seek not the high places of the world, but only seek God's kingdom and his love for his children.


These are the people you should trust. These who have nothing, who can give you nothing materially, but give you much spiritually. These who deny the world, shall save the world. These who have naught, shall have much, for their kingdom is of God and that which they amass, is in heaven - and that is indestructible.

They who amass great fortunes in your world, they who amass great power for themselves and their friends [shall] bring destruction upon the world and unhappiness. These are the people who shall lose everything. Find nothing here, you my children. Do not consider yourselves too much of the things of the Earth. 'Build', as Christ said, 'your treasures in heaven.'


By your heart and the good deeds that your heart directs you to do and in love, serve his children and you shall find peace. And in humility you shall find truth and truth shall give you freedom.

Be of good faith my one...friends, be of good faith. I must go...


Greene / Woods:
We thank you very much.


Gandhi:
Peace to you. My peace to you. My blessings to all peoples of the Earth.


Greene:

Thank you very much.


Woods:

Thank you very, very much.


Mickey:
Bye-bye.


Greene:
Goodbye Mickey love, thank you.


Woods:
...thank you Mickey.


Mickey:
Bye-bye.


Greene:
Goodbye love.


Woods:
Thank you Mickey for bringing him through.


Flint:
One of the best we've ever had.


Woods:
It is. It's a...


Greene:
Are you very tired? Can I get you anything?


Flint:
No, no, no it's perfectly alright. I'm sort of, half away, you know...conscious and...


END OF RECORDING


This transcript was created for the Trust by K.Jackson-Barnes - February 2018