The Leslie Flint Educational Trust

Note: This clear vintage recording contains some occasional light interference.

[This séance] was recorded on the 2nd of September 1963. Medium Leslie Flint.

Marshall:
Do you know, I’ve also been looking forward to tonight.

Creet:
Oh, yes.

Marshall:
Because this friend here, Stephen...

Creet:
Yes?

Marshall:
...has been very much looking forward to this.

Creet:
Oh!

Marshall:
As a matter of fact, he’s very calm...

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall:
...very placid about it. In a way I'm rather surprised that he’s come on so well. He’s rather taken to this like a duck takes to water. I think it’s possibly partly due to the fact that he’s still, in a sense of course, mentally that is, very near the Earth.

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall:
Which, under the circumstances, I think is very understandable.

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall:
Erm...I think, naturally, from what I have been able to gather, that he feels, uh, that he should have fought on. I think he feels that he rather threw in his hand. I think that rather still worries him a bit. Uh, of course, there’s no reason why he should be, in my opinion, unduly concerned or worried about that aspect. But, erm, I suppose in a sense that is natural, but it will change. He’ll change, in his realisation of things.

I think he feels that he might have stayed on your side and fought, and as he'd fought so well in the...through the whole business actually...

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall:
...that he ought to have faced it out, because there would have been repercussions and reoccurrence. I think actually it wouldn’t have stopped. In fact, I'm sure this whole business would have gone on, uh, to his benefit actually. I think if he'd have gone to prison, which no doubt almost certainly he would have done, his sentence would have been, uh, changed.

I think there would have been an appeal and I think his sentence would have been, uh, much less. I think he realises that now. But I think that he felt and with the type of person that he was, highly strung and very sensitive, I feel that he felt that all the weight was against him. Because the evidence, such as it was, was very much piled on against him.

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall:
And, um, all the friends that he had or thought were his friends, deserted him. I think he felt that he was a man who was rowing his own boat, and no-one was giving him a hand and the waters were so stormy...I think that the poor man felt that there was nothing to go on for. I think he was driven to suicide, quite frankly by, well, by the whole situation which had been brought into being and many of them by his...well, partly by his friends.

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall:
I mean, the situation got on top of him, to the extent that he felt he could not face any more. And I think that possibly he also felt too, within himself, that certain statements could have been made - which he could have made and which other people could have made - which would have practically cleared him and, in any case, could have certainly altered the verdict.

But I think that he was afraid. After all, he is only a human being. I think he was afraid that...that he might have himself said certain things which he might have regretted. I think he was a man, strange as it may seem to many people, I am sure he was a man of great integrity - a weak man in some senses, yes. But, um, he kept his mouth shut to protect...

Creet:
Well, he could have opened...

Marshall:
When he could have opened his mouth to protect...to protect the very people who were, some of them at least...

Creet:
[Unintelligible] Yes.

Marshall:
...who were, who were the cause of him being in the position he found himself.

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall:
The whole situation, the whole business, uh, I think, so played on his mind in the last few days, that I think he felt he couldn’t face any more.

Creet:
Well, I hope to goodness these people who were so...to cowardly do come forward...

Marshall:
Well, of course, the whole thing basically, whether one likes to admit it or not...and even now he won’t say anything. I don’t know...I think even if he comes to speak to you I don’t think, frankly, he will tell you anything that will incriminate anyone else.

Creet:
No, I am sure he won’t, that I do know.

Marshall:
If he wouldn’t, if he wouldn’t say that on your side...

Creet:
No.

Marshall:
...I’m quite sure he won’t say it from this.

Creet:
No.

Marshall:
And we have to accept that, uh...but I’m sure that there’s no doubt about this; that the whole of this trial was basically political. He was made a scapegoat.

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall:
And I think he realised that and...

Creet:
Oh yes he does.

Marshall:
...he realised only too well throughout the whole of the trial, everything was weighted against him, that he hadn’t a chance, and there's no doubt that some of these girls deliberately were lying and one wouldn’t like to say how much pressure was brought on them.

As a matter of fact, one gathers, what I can gather from this is that a certain amount of pressure was brought on those girls to say certain things that obviously never even took place.

Creet:
Well, I hope to goodness they suffer...for what they've done.

Marshall:
But it isn’t altogether the girls' fault. I am not condoning them and from what Ward...

Creet:
Well what I really wanted to...

Marshall:
...from what Ward tells me is, that behind that was something much more sinister and that is the, the establishment.

Creet:
Oh.

Marshall:
You know you’ve got to face up to the fact that you cannot go against the establishment, without the establishment; with its power...

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall
...and it’s, uh, position, treading its heel on your face.

Creet:
No. Yes I know that.

Marshall:
I think Ward realised that he had, uh, was a victim of the establishment. And I think that the whole of that trial was, from what I can gather - a great deal of it anyway - was a disgrace. And I think there's going to be...but I think I told you before, I don’t know if Ward told you, but there's going to be a tremendous amount of uh...uh, discussion.

Creet:
Yes, you did tell me.

Marshall:
There’s going to be a lot of, uh, newspaper and articles written, uh, it’s not doing...certainly, it hasn’t done British justice any good; abroad, and it certainly hasn’t helped this country. 

You know, other nations more or less, to some extent, saw nothing sinister or nothing particularly unusual in someone having; a cabinet minister for that matter, having an affair with a prostitute. Another country would have hushed it up, and that would have been the end of it. But, um, it seems that poor Ward was made the scapegoat.

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall:
The rest got free you see and, of course, very quietly crept out.

Creet:
And what will really happen to him, you know. Because suicides I believe...

Marshall:
I don’t know why you should worry about that Rose. I thought you understood sufficient about this to know, that even in the worst case of suicide; that is, a case of suicide, uh, uh, where the person was fully conscious and aware, uh, were in their right senses - that is, to doing such a thing and taking that way out.

Even in the worst case of suicide, there is no, in a sense, condemnation on this...there is never any condemnation on this side in any case.

Creet:
No, well that's what I wanted...

Marshall:
But, what I am trying to say of course, is - I'm perhaps not putting it very well - that, um, with the case of Ward, with Stephen Ward, I think he feels...and this is what most people feel, that passing from your world to this, doesn't solve any problems. In other words, you are still left with the problems.

Creet:
Yes. But Doctor dear, can't we...can't we help him in any way?

Marshall:
Well yes, I think one can and I am sure we will. And that is, that if he comes from time to time, which I know he wants to come and I'm hoping he'll come tonight, by speaking to him...but don’t, um, um...I don’t want to give the wrong impression to you, and I'm sure you are not the sort of person who would talk down to him...

Creet:
Oh, good Lord no.

Marshall:
No don’t misunderstand me; I had a feeling you might. What I mean is that, you know, so many of these Spiritualistic circles, when a suicide is brought through or some soul is brought through, not necessarily a suicide, for help...the sitters have a habit of talking down to the person, as if they are admonishing a naughty boy.

Creet:
Oh!

Marshall:
You know, I am sure you are not like that. But I say this because I want you to realise that this man Ward has, I hope he can’t hear me, um, pride. Now I don’t mean the wrong kind of pride.

Creet:
No.

Marshall:
I think that he was a man who really was an extraordinary character. In fact, the more I am beginning to know him, the more I begin to like him...and, um, I wouldn’t, um...well I would bother of course, with anyone who needed help. But I have learned to like him so much and I really want to help him all I can. I feel that...

Creet:
Oh good Doctor dear...

Marshall:
I feel that we can help him, but we must never make it too obvious.

Creet:
Oh no, well, well, whenever he comes now and again...

Marshall:
The thing is to be as a natural as possible and discuss whatever is brought up in a most natural matter-of-fact way.

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall:
I shouldn’t, if I were you, ask him any pertinent questions.

Creet:
No.

Marshall:
If he wants to discuss anything or open up on a subject, by all means do. Actually, he’s beginning to settle down extremely well and, um, I think he’s a little bit concerned, from the material point of view, about certain writings, certain things that he’s left behind. Because I think he wanted those things published.

Creet:
Oh.

Marshall:
And, uh, that there's some doubt as to whether these things will get published. There will be a lot of things published, but what I mean is, there are certain things of his own that he’s very anxious to be published and, um, I don’t know whether I should say this...

Creet:
Yes...

Marshall:
It’s so difficult for me, but I think he thinks, uh, that certain things that he deliberately left behind for publication are going to be suppressed and that certain persons that are involved have an 'axe to grind'.

But whether they will be suppressed in this country I don't think somehow, they will be suppressed in another. So, they'll probably leak out.

Creet:
Well, I believe his memoirs or something, uh, they’re going to be published in France and other countries, but not in England.

Marshall:
Well...

Creet:
That’s what I have read in the paper. I don’t know whether that is true.

Marshall:
I think, uh, there’s going to be a lot of, um, a lot of discussion about this trial. I think there is going to be a lot of arguing about it.

Creet:
I hope there is.

Marshall:
And I think that Ward’s whole affair and the circumstances of his passing are going to arouse a lot of controversy and a lot of discussion, and I think it will do a lot of good.

Creet:
Yes, yes. I hope so. Oh.

Marshall:
Certainly, he was painted much blacker than he was.

Creet:
Poor old man...

Flint:
Huh!

[Long pause]

Ward:
Good evening Mrs Creet.

Flint:
Mmm?

Creet:
Mmm?

Ward:
[Louder] Good evening Mrs Creet.

Creet:
Good evening.

Ward:
Very nice of you to allow me to come.

Creet:
Oh, I am so glad you have come again. Dr Marshall has been talking about you and saying...

Ward:
So, I believe.

Creet:
...how much better you are.

Ward:
Oh, I’m alright. Much better than I was last time when I spoke to you. I was a little bit airyated.*

Creet:
Oh yes.

Ward:
But I’m perfectly alright now. I am fully, fully aware of the whole situation.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
I am much more...much more able to see everything from every angle. I was feeling perhaps, not embittered, but I was feeling very, sort of, sorry for myself. I’m alright now, thanks very much.

Creet:
Oh good, that was what I...

Ward:
I was hoping. I’m hoping that I as I get a little more used to this sort of thing, I may be able to talk to you about various things.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
But there’s certain things that I don’t think would be very...

Creet:
But anything...

Ward:
...very wise to discuss or talk about.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
At least, it would not make any difference to me if I spoke about them, but it wouldn’t do to discuss them possibly, because I don’t wish to create more unhappiness for others.

Creet:
Oh, no. But if there is anything that we can do for you Doctor, Doctor Ward...

Ward:
Oh no, there is nothing you can do for me as far as I know.

Creet:
No.

Ward:
I really don’t think so. I really don’t see how you possibly could, except in giving me the opportunity to come and talk. Because I find it very pleasant for one thing and secondly, I feel it’s nice to have a friend that I can speak to and well...

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
...also there are some things I would like to talk about later on...and possibly I may be able to correct one or two things which have been said, which are quite incorrect and possibly, who knows, at some later time, it may be possible for me to discuss certain aspects of these things with people on your side who, well, who are prepared to listen.

Not that possibly it would do any good, but it would be rather nice because there are certain people that I would like eventually to contact them.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
But at the moment, I know it’s out of the question.

Creet:
Well you just let us know when you’re ready and we’ll see what can be done.

Ward:
But I certainly do not wish to incriminate....hello?

Creet:
No.

[Long pause]

Creet:
Are you there?

[Long pause]

Creet:
He did very well Mamoose.**

Flint:
Mmm.

Creet:
Are you there, Dr Ward?

[Long pause]

Creet:
He was a musician too, you know.

Ward:
Sorry. Sorry, sorry.

Creet:
Eh?

Ward:
Sorry. I lost...I lost the link.

Creet:
Oh, you lost it?

Ward:
Yes, sorry.

Creet:
Oh well done to you.

Ward:
Ah, it’s very difficult.

Creet:
Oh well done. You’re getting quite, uh...

Ward:
I have no desire to incriminate anyone else. But the extraordinary thing was...

Creet:
What?

Ward:
The extraordinary thing was...

Creet:
[Coughing]

Ward:
...that I did absolutely nothing that would incriminate anyone. Actually, all the incrimination was done by other people.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
I didn’t seek it and I didn’t [give] anything that would incriminate anyone. The odd thing was, and the whole of this business was forced on me, I tried to avoid the issue for everybody’s sake. At least...and I quite honestly I wasn’t so concerned about myself as some people may have thought.

Creet:
That I realise, I...

Ward:
I was much more...much more concerned with people whose names were, well, whose names were household words, I mean, people who were really so well known. I tried to protect them in the beginning, but in the end, they let me down.

Creet:
Yes. Yes. Yes, I can read between the lines and whatever I read in the newspapers, I thought that was the case.

Ward:
I bear no ill will. I would like you to realise that I bear no ill will at all.

Creet:
You have no what?

Ward:
Ill will.

Creet:
No, ill will. No that’s right. That's good.

Ward:
And I...I don’t want anyone to suffer.

Creet:
No. No.

Ward:
But I do feel...

Creet:
Well that's a sign...

Ward:
...that if certain...I do feel that if certain people had spoken on my behalf who could have easily have spoken, it could have made a completely different picture. It could have created quite a different aspect on the whole thing. But you know, these people were thinking of themselves all the time. They...they deliberately kept out of court. In fact, some of them...well I won’t say that, but some of them...

Creet:
Oh I know, I know...

Ward:
Some of them...some of them, well, were actually...forced to stay out.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
It's a dirty business I’m afraid. Funny thing is, I did so little really, fundamentally, that was wrong. I did some foolish things, of course I did. I don’t dispute that. But at the same time, I don’t really think I did anything terribly, terribly wrong.

Creet:
[Oh, it doesn't bother us. We've all done] foolish things.

Ward:
It just happens that I was unfortunate. In as much that I was...well I like to be 'in the swim', let’s face it.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
I like to be...be...be...be with the people that mattered.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
I see how foolish that was now. I paid for my mistake in that, I can assure you.

Creet:
Well I don’t think it was foolish at all, because after all you were an artist weren’t you and you liked, uh...

Ward:
Yes. And it's quite true, let me say this...

Creet:
And also a musician of some kind?

Ward:
Yes, sort of. Well I wouldn’t say I was terribly good at that, but I very fond of it. But I was artistic and, quite frankly, I got..I got just as much pleasure, perhaps looking back now I realise it was more pleasure, out of my artistic abilities than anything else.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
But I was susceptible to the charms of women, so...

Creet:
Oh well naturally, yes.

Ward:
That was nothing unusual after all. It just happened that certain of these girls well, uh...

Creet:
Yes...

Ward:
...got...got mixed up with certain peoples that I introduced. I mean, quite frankly, I had no particular...I got nothing out of it...

Creet:
You did a lot...

Ward:
Poor me. I thought I was doing a good turn!

Creet:
That’s it yes. You were trying to help a lot of them, weren’t you?

Ward:
I tried to help several of them.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
And goodness me I did. I did more for one or two, than anyone else would have done.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
I don’t...but still, I would rather not discuss it.

Creet:
No darling, you just don’t discuss it. Whatever you feel inclined to say, just say it.

Ward:
Dr Marshall made me laugh just now.

Creet:
Why?

Ward:
He says you want a photograph of me.

Creet:
[Laughing] Well how...how does he know?

Ward:
I don’t know. He just told me a few minutes ago when I broke off.

Creet:
Oh yes, you know...

Ward:
He said...he said that you want a photograph of me.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
What ever should you want a photograph of me for?

Creet:
Oh I don’t know. Because, uh, I...I admired you in a great way. Tremendously.

Ward:
Well I don't know why...after all I was very ordinary person really. That’s the funny part about it when you analyse the whole of this silly business...

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
I was a very ordinary person.

Creet:
Oh...

Ward:
And yet there was all this fuss and bother. I didn’t really do anything that was so dreadful. In fact, a lot of the things I’ve been...I was accused of, I didn’t even know anything about and certainly didn’t do them.

Creet:
[Laughing]

Ward:
And if my male friends were interested in some girl that I knew...

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
What they did apart from...was nothing to do with me, and after all is said and done, why should I bother?

Creet:
[Laughing]

Ward:
I’m not responsible.

Creet:
No.

Ward:
But I got 'the can', I took 'the can' for it all.***

Creet:
Poor man. Doesn’t matter...

Ward:
All the worry it caused...

Creet:
Well you are well out of it now, aren’t you?

Ward:
Yes, I suppose I am really. Yes, I am of course. That’s silly of me to say that. I am out of it.

Creet:
And look at the wonderful work you can do on your side, once you get used to the vibrations and everything.

Ward:
Yes, that's very nice of you to say that.

Creet:
No, it’s really true. I’m sure...

Ward:
Yes, well I have that to find out and I’ll let you know about it.

Creet:
Yes. [Laughing]

Flint:
[Laughing]

Creet:
I’ve ordered a photograph of yours, I’m going to put it...

Ward:
Good Lord! Don’t tell me...you don't mean to tell me they're on sale in the shops?

Creet:
What?

Ward:
Don’t tell me they are selling my photograph in the shops. Where are you getting it from?

Creet:
I don’t know. A friend of mine knows an American and its coming from New York or somewhere. I don’t know from where.

Ward:
My God!

Creet:
Why?

Ward:
Nothing. It strikes me as rather odd...

Creet:
[Laughing]

Ward:
...that you should get a photograph of me from New York. But I suppose the American paid...

Creet:
I will have it in this room. So, you look out for it when you come again.

Ward:
Oh, I might even sign it for you.

Creet:
[Laughing] You might sign it, you say?

Ward:
Yes. Why not?

Creet:
Ooh, wouldn’t it be wonderful if you did?

Ward:
Well, I’ll see what I can do about it.

Creet:
Mmm...wonderful.

Ward:
I can ask Marshall how it’s done.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
He’s a good chap, isn’t he?

Creet:
Oh, he is a lovely soul.

Ward:
I must say, you are very kind to me. I appreciate it very much.

Creet:
He’s a lovely soul. He's done such a lot of good for me.

Ward:
You know it’s too funny for words really, you know.

Creet:
What’s that?

Ward:
With my reputation...

Creet:
Yes?

Ward:
Some people would say it’s very risky trying to get in touch with me.

Creet:
[Laughing]

Flint:
[Laughing]

Creet:
He likes you very much; Dr Marshall.

Ward:
Well, I like him...[unintelligible]. He’s been very kind to me and...

Creet:
And he'd be a great help to you you know Doctor, a great help. Two doctors together.

Ward:
Yes. A bit old fashioned, but he’s quite pleasant.

Creet:
[Laughing]

Flint:
[Laughing]

Creet:
Oh I read about, in one of the papers, about you...

Flint:
[Coughing]

Creet:
...curing a girl who was dumb and then made her speak. It was very interesting.

Ward:
Well its very nice of them to drag up my good works when I am dead.

Creet:
[Laughing]

Flint:
[Laughing]

Ward:
[Unintelligible] away don’t you think?

Creet:
[Oh, don’t] talk about being dead, you are very much alive now.

Ward:
Well I am dead. Technically I’m dead.

Creet:
Ah technically, but look at what you will be able to do from your side now.

Ward:
You keep on saying that; what I'll do from this side. I’d rather, in a sense, have spent a few more years on yours if I could have had them in peace and quiet and enjoyed myself.

Creet:
[Laughing]

Ward:
I wasn't allowed to enjoy myself, so God knows if I'm going to be allowed to enjoy myself over here. Let’s hope so.

Creet:
[Laughing]

Flint:
[Laughing]

Ward:
You don’t see lovely moral codes over here anyway.

Creet:
[Laughing]

Flint:
[Laughing]

Creet:
Anyhow you’ve got a great sense of humour.

Ward:
It is necessary...[unintelligible]

Creet:
What a good thing that is...

Ward:
It is necessary.

Creet:
Mmm.

Ward:
Do you know what I fancy most? It will sound stupid to you.

Creet:
What?

Ward:
I fancy a damn good cup of coffee.

Creet:
Ooh! Do you know, I read about that. You...they...

Ward:
I don’t know why that should be, because, quite frankly, I suppose being a disembodied spirit I shouldn’t have any bowels to put the coffee in, but...

Creet:
But would you...

Ward:
...maybe it's because I’m speaking and therefore coming down onto, what you call, a material level. But, um, funny...I would like...

Creet:
One of your friends you know, Warwick his name was, he's wrote very nicely about you in the papers and he said the coffee was going all day and all night...

Ward:
Yes, don’t remind me...

Creet:
Yes. [Laughing]

Ward:
All I can have, I suppose, is a sort of realisation of it.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
Mind you, I know this sounds stupid, but I have had coffee over here. But now I come to talk to you, I don’t really know if I’ve had it or imagined I’ve had it.

Creet:
Oh yes...

Ward:
Possibly it must have been in my imagination.

Creet:
Yes.

Ward:
Anyway, I must talk about all these things and more important things later. I must go now.

Creet:
Alright.

Ward:
I’m so sorry.

Creet:
Perhaps we’ll have a cup of coffee and you might...

Ward:
Yes.

Creet:
...get the aroma of it?

Ward:
Would be very interesting wouldn’t it?

Creet:
[Laughing] Well its very nice of you to come and I hope you'll come again.

Ward:
Well I certainly will, if I may. It’s been very nice talking to you. I’ll try and talk about something intelligent next time.

Creet:
Alright.

Ward:
Bye-bye.

Creet:
Bye-bye.

Ward:
Thank you.

Marshall:
Well Rose, he didn't do so bad, did he?

Creet:
Oh Doctor, he's wonderful.

Marshall:
This business of the coffee is rather interesting because...

Creet:
Yes?

Marshall:
...actually, as you probably know, when a person first comes over here, their memory of material things is very strong and he is very strong at the moment. And they do have, um, uh, things that they want; such as coffee and so on [and] if they want to, why not? It’s all a mental thing, there’s no real reality as such. But to...to him it’s a reality. 

Creet:
Yes.

Marshall:
Although, when he comes back like this, he probably thinks that what happened or what has happened since his passing, to some extent, was a kind of dream state.

You see, it’s a very difficult state to be in and this is something which happens to so many. It takes a little time for them to adjust themselves, but he will. He is a quick learner.

Creet:
Oh yes.

Marshall:
He’s a very nice fellow.

Creet:
Very nice.

Marshall:
And I think he is going to make excellent progress.

Creet:
Oh, yes. Do look after him Doctor...

Marshall:
And so...there is no need to worry about him because, believe me, he was far from being a sinner; he was far more sinned against, than a sinner.

Creet:
Of course. Of course. That’s why we worry about him so much.

Marshall:
And for God’s sake girl, keep that damn temperature of yours down, and don’t get so worked up. Be calm and don’t get upset.

Creet:
Well I feel better now.

Marshall:
Well I hope you do.

END OF RECORDING

*airyated = a seldom used word, which means 'agitated' or 'over-excited'.

**Mamoose = Rose Creet's private nickname for Leslie Flint.

***got the can / took the can = got blamed / took the punishment.