The Leslie F​lint​ Tr​ust

This enhanced séance recording begins with Mickey,

speaking to George Woods and Betty Greene.

Since being on the 'other side', Mickey has gained a great amount of knowledge, especially in the field of philosophy.

At this particular sitting he speaks passionately about

Then the ex-Dean of St Paul's Cathedral,
William Ralph Inge, communicates and explains that,
after his death, his old religious views had to change.

Inge says the Church has always taken the simplest spiritual truths
and changed them to suit its own agenda.

He believes the Church would be the first to condemn Christ

if he ever returned to the Earth...

Note: Although this vintage recording has been enhanced for clarity, some interference remains.

Read the full transcript for this recording below as you listen...

Communicators: Mickey, William Inge.

Present: George Woods, Betty Greene, Leslie Flint.

Mickey:

...and there are times when you get, sort of, dissatisfied; you don't feel you're getting anywhere.

Flint:

Huh!

Woods:

No.

Greene:

Well, that's quite...

Woods/Greene:

[unintelligible]

Mickey:

After all, we're very human you know. People don't always realise it, that we're not all that, um... well, advanced, I suppose, that we don't feel sometimes, well, a need for, well, further advancement - or we get a little fed up [and] we feel that we're not making enough progress. I do.

Greene:

Yes, well we all get...

Mickey:

And then when you're connected with a medium you feel, 'oh dear' you're not doing your work as well as you might, you're not being so successful in transmitting messages or... I get a bit browned off sometimes!

Flint:

Huh!

Greene:

You get frustrated Mickey?

Mickey:

Well yes. I think a lot of people on your side haven't got much of a clue really, what this is all about.

Flint: [Laughing]

Woods:

Yes.

Mickey:

They just, sort of, sit and talk to 'Uncle Willie' and have a natter about one thing or the other and 'how's the business' and 'I should get rid of those shares' and the rest of it, and that's [the] top and bottom of it. They don't see the point.

Greene:

But still, Mickey, you must admit that some these...

Flint: [Sniffing]

Greene:

...mundane messages, they do start the ball rolling, don't they?

Mickey:

Oh, I'm not saying it hasn't got a place. I think it's very important in the initial stages to search and you need evidence. But, the point is, the majority of people just stay there and they swing on the fence.

Greene:

Yes.

Woods:

That is so, yes...

Mickey:

They don't seem to have got the realisation, [that] behind this is something vital and vast and tremendous, you know. They, sort of, just sit there and think, 'oh well' you know, 'nice to know there's something after death' and 'I'm sure it's going to be a bit better than this' and 'Aunt Maggie says so-and-so' and 'when I get there Aunt Maggie will make me comfortable.'  Well, it ain't as simple as that.

Greene: [Laughing]

Flint: [Laughing]

Woods:

I quite agree with you.

Greene:

That's very true Mickey.

Mickey:

Well, I mean, you look at some of the people, I mean, that come. I mean, all they're concerned about is not really their spiritual advancement and neither, for that matter, are they particularly interested in the spiritual advancement of people over here. They are merely concerned with 'self'...

Greene:

Yes.

Mickey:

...and this is invariably the material aspect of self, not the spiritual.

Woods:

Yes.

Mickey:

I get browned off sometimes. I feel I could really 'go to town' on some of them.

Flint: [Laughing]

Woods:

Yes, I feel that [sometimes] even, on this side...

Mickey:

I mean they try to bring there own dear ones over here down onto a lower level, on there own level...

Woods:

Yes.

Mickey:

...and expect them to do fortune telling. I get browned off with it!

Flint: [Laughing]

Greene:

I don't blame you Mickey.

Woods:

I don't blame you. Every word of that's true.

Mickey:

I tell them sometimes, I have to. I can't help it, I can't contain myself. I can't, honest!

Flint: [Laughing]

Are you recording this?

Greene:

Yes, we're going to keep this, it's good!

Flint: [Coughing]

Woods:

Well, it's especially true, yes. Every word he says is true.

Mickey:

You see, with this truth – and it's a universal truth that applies to all humanity, whatever strata of, uh, a society or whatever nation they may belong to – it's something that affects all human beings, and you can't narrow it down in it's conception. It's ridiculous. I mean, you just can't do it like that...

Some people want to make a religion of it, some want to add it to their own religion to bolster it up, because it's a bit weak and falling to bits. I mean, it's all so silly.

Greene:

Of course it is Mickey. Quite right.

Mickey:

Truth is truth and fundamental truth is the thing that matters. And so many of these people who have got a grasping of truth or an aspect of truth, are not sure within themselves, in fact they are very lacking in faith and lacking in knowledge, a lot of them, but they look upon this as a salvation. And they try and narrow it down and tie creeds and religions and dogmas and... and all sorts of rituals and nonsense that purely is material, basically, in man's own imagination and mind.

Man has created all the fallacies and tries to get hold of real truth and sort of stifle it. I mean, even this truth they try and stifle it. They'll fit it into their own way of thinking, they try to bolster up their own, sort of, weakened faith. We get a bit browned off with it, I tell you. I do.

Greene:

It does really, Mickey.

Mickey:

After all, this a universal thing and once you start to narrow it down, in a creedal sense, you destroy.

Woods:

Yes.

Mickey:

You can't do that. You can't throttle truth. You might for a time, but eventually it will come out. The trouble is, sometimes people think that they've got to have truth put into their own bottle with their own label, you can't do it like that.

Woods:

No.

Greene:

That's a good expression isn't it?

Mickey:

Because once you put it in a bottle and put a label on it, you put the stopper on, well, there it is – and it rots. That's why I haven't got much time for these people who have got strong religious views who think that this would be a great asset to them, providing they can fit it into their own way of thinking. They've already, sort of, put their own label on it and in consequence they've narrowed it down to such a thing that it's no longer universal, it's something which is only for their own sect or creed. It's all wrong.

Flint: [Sniffing]

Mickey:

Once people realise that there are great teachers and have been teachers in all organisations and all religions – in fact, frankly, when it's analysed and got down to rock bottom, none of the great seers or great teachers or great prophets ever had a religion or even ever came to found one. It's what man has done with it.

Greene:

Yes, quite right.

Mickey:

These people have given truth and they have given a revelation and man in his ignorance has narrowed it down to his own confines and he has created a religion and a dogma and a creed out of it and expects everyone to run around, kowtow, bowing and all the rest of it, when it's the last thing that, um, religion, true religion, should be.

True religion is living in service, it's not narrowing it down to a church or a creed or a dogma, is it? I mean Christ didn't come to found a religion. Man founded the religion. Christ came to reveal truth.

Greene:

Quite right.

Mickey:

Oh, I could tell you. I could, straight.

Greene:

I bet you could Mickey.

Mickey:

I haven't got much time for these organisations. I know that in their own kind of way they can do a certain amount of good, but they are very limited because they've already started to label the bottle and put the cork on!

Flint: [Laughing]

Greene:

Quite right.

Mickey:

It's a pity.

Woods:

Yes.

Mickey:

You can't confine truth in bottles with labels. It's like the ocean; it's tremendous - and all ships sail on it.

Flint:

Mickey's gone to town again hasn't he?

Greene:

Well, what he says is very true. I'm very glad he's said it because...

Mickey:

Well it's so true. I mean, it is all these labels, it is all this 'bottling up' of truth and keeping it retained for a select few, holding it to themselves. And when they do try to spread it they've got to make everybody kowtow and... and drink out of the same bottle. Well, I mean, the medicine ain't right for everybody!

Greene:

Quite right Mickey.

Mickey:

I mean, you go to the doctor, what does he do? He gives you some wallop*...

[*Wallop = a tonic or medicine]

...but it may do you some good, it may not. It may cure some people and help them a bit, but it won't cure universally. True healing is that of the spirit and that of the mind, and you don't get that in any particular doctor's surgery, any more than you get it in any particular church. Truth is universal.

Greene:

Quite right Mickey.

Mickey:

After all, a lot of the stuff they give you in the doctor's and in the churches is very much the same, it's only an antidote. It's only a kind of dope to help you over a stile for the time being. It isn't sufficient to keep you going forever and to hold you up in the true sense.

No doctor and no church can give you universal life and no doctor and no church can give you enough to give you the realisation of truth in it's full immensity. They give you a little potion, but it's only a little bit of dope to keep you going a bit longer. Real truth isn't confined in surgeries or in churches. It's outside it, not inside. There's more truth in nature than you'll ever find in a church. You take the chrysalis and the butterfly.

Greene:

Yes. It's a wonderful medicine that, isn't it?

Mickey:

It's a pity really, because when you look back in history, I mean, the revelation or the realisation is there. Something that is fundamentally good and nothing can destroy is never the cause of friction, it's always the cause of love and it binds and brings people together, not separates them. And I think you'll find in the history of religion that there's more friction, there's more animosity, more hatred, more malice, more intolerance, more jealousy, more bitterness and more wars, through that than probably anything else...

Greene:

Yes. I must agree...

Mickey:

...for the simple reason that they haven't got the real truth. They've only got an aspect of it and they're trying to confine it and make everybody else fall into the same pattern. When you've got universal truth, you'll have universal thinking, universal love.

You can't confine it to nations or creeds and dogmas, you've got to realise that all men are part of God's plan and purpose. He doesn't desire that they should be separated either by creeds, dogmas, a small aspect of truth, or what have you. Real religion in the truest sense is a universal thing, not a narrow confined thing that one is right and the other is wrong.

Oh, I could go on and on, I could. I've seen it over here, I know from experience that sometimes the greatest barrier to spiritual progress is the narrow-minded creedal aspect of religion. You see groups of people here who are perfectly content and perfectly happy in their own narrow way of thinking. And they really, honestly believe that one day they are going to be brought back to Earth to reign supreme, because their God is elect.

It's only wrong teaching and wrong thinking that has made them like that. Their thoughts have become so predominantly on that way of thinking, on that line of thought, that nothing can shift them. And until such time as they seek great truth, real truth, and cut down their narrow conception of truth, once they break down the barrier that religion and creed has brought upon them, and then of course they'll stay in that state.

Everything's a state of mind. And if a person is in a state of mind that he's got the truth and nobody else has and he wants to force it down everybody else's throat – and it's been proved over and over again that it isn't completely truth [and only] part of truth – then no one has the right to command or demand or to suggest that he is right and others are wrong, when he knows full well that he's only got a minute speck of it.

In fact, a little knowledge is dangerous.

Oh well, you don't want to listen to me all the morning!

Flint: [Laughing]

Greene:

It's very nice Mickey...

Flint: [Sniffing]

Greene:

[unintelligible]

William Inge:

In many respects I could not agree with our friend more. It is an appalling thought that the teachings of Christ, the fundamental truths that He and other great souls have taught, the revelation that has been given, the works that have been done in this realisation of God's will and purpose - that so much unfortunately has been obscured. So much has been misinterpreted, so much has been given forth that did not even emanate from him, or others like him - that you have in your world such chaos among men, that they in themselves, unfortunately, cannot see - only so far. It is as if they themselves, in their foolishness, like children, have lost the way. It is a pity, and a great sadness to us.

And as I look back over my life, I realise only too well how, in my own ignorance, although I thought I was a man of learning and experience, though I thought that I had truth, I realise that that which I had was but an aspect. And that it had been unfortunately confined in such a way that it could only [express the minutest part of God's will and purpose; and I realise that Christ] came into the world indeed to save sinners, but not in the way that is oft-times interpreted.

For man himself can only achieve greatness, spiritual greatness, by his own effort. No other individual can do it for you. Christ and others have pointed the way and set the example, and it is for us to follow in their footsteps and to become like them. But when we consider, as so often when on Earth one does, that we are saved, in a sense, that these efforts of ours, puny though they are, have some effect and yet in themselves are pointless because another has been sent to do this, to make possible the salvation.

Once we realise that we can throw ourselves upon another soul to be saved, then I am convinced that we have committed a grave error, indeed a sin. Because I am convinced that whatever achievement, whatever effort we make, that, in itself, is the important thing - that we must endeavour, we must strive, we must struggle, we must overcome within ourselves. No one can do this for us; we must do it ourselves, we must follow the path that has been set, and if we do that, then indeed do we find salvation, but only through our own effort, not through the effort of another.

This one, Jesus, who so much has been spoken of, this great soul who came into the world in such a humble way, and lived a life giving forth love, giving forth the realisation of God's will and purpose, in all the things that he said and did, he endeavoured to show the only way to development of spiritual consciousness.

The only way to find salvation was through service and through love - through putting oneself further and further into the background. In other words, become a vessel for greater souls, for greater teachings, for greater realisations of God's will and purpose. We are instruments and when we realise that, when we realise how much can be done through us, how much we can give out, which so few ever do. If only we realised the true meaning and purpose of our lives, then we begin to see, then we begin to grow and expand, then we begin to become at least something like Christ. But to think that one person, that one soul - even those sent from the highest - can save us, is a fallacy.

Greene:

Excuse me interrupting you. May I ask who is speaking?

Inge:

My name probably will convey little or nothing to you; my name is Inge.

Greene:

Oh yes!

Woods:

Inge?

Greene:

Inge? Dean Inge?

Inge:

I was.

Greene:

Oh, of course, it conveys a lot to us.

Woods:

You...were Dean Inge of...

Greene:

Paul's...St Paul's.

Woods:

Oh, Dean Inge of St Paul's.

Inge:

I am so anxious that Christ should be understood. Not in the narrow, creedal, mystical sense, but as a real, living, vital being, as indeed he is and was, when on Earth. A man who had the courage of his convictions - not a weak namby-pamby, as some seem to visualise him, but as [a] man of strength, of courage, of conviction. A man who today if he lived, would probably be jailed because of his views, because of his strength, because he had the courage of his convictions.

This man Christ, is not the person that is picturised in the minds of so many, whose narrow conception is far removed from the reality. Christ was a man of action, Christ would have been called a revolutionary in your modern age. He would have been imprisoned, maybe even, as in his own time, he would have been killed by the mob because they would have none of him, anymore than today if the real Christ came among you, you would not have anything to do with him, in spite of all that the Church teaches.

The Church themselves probably would be the first to crucify him again if they could, because they do not like those who come with a message such as this. They are affeared, they would be afraid it were of the Devil; they would doubt it, as they doubt even my words as I speak to you.

Many who listen to my words will not accept me, Why? Because they are afraid; they are afraid that if they give up that which they hold, which they consider to be right, that I, and others like me, will supersede or take their place. They do not like to give up that which they hold so firmly to them, in spite of the fact that many, if they spoke the truth, deep in their hearts they know there is much error in that which they teach and preach.

I would say many things, but I will content myself by saying this, that Christ, if he were to come back among you, would be condemned by the very people who support and uphold him today. Christ did not come to make an easy path, because he knew, and we all know deep in our hearts, that he who would do God's will upon Earth, could not possibly find a path that would be easy.

For it is a path far removed from man's conception of things - man who has become so materialistically inclined - man who, in his ignorance and foolishness, brings upon himself all kinds of suffering and misery - man, because he will hold on to pride, considering these things more important than humility. Only those who are humble in spirit can see truth. It is not the brilliant minds, the great brains, not the high positioned that have the fullest aspect of truth; invariably they know little of Truth - they only have a small conception that suits their own particular way of life. We have seen it in so many ways.

Often those who have had truth in the beginning, as they have progressed materially and had more power, more position - they have lost the path, they have lost the way. They become immersed in the material conception of things, and they cannot uphold truth any longer, only as a facade and that indeed is not real truth - it is only an aspect which has benefited them, but it has not benefited them necessarily spiritually, but only materially. Indeed, they have used it as a shroud; for inside there is but death.

I know. I know from my own experience, much to my regret, that many things that I preached, many things that I gave out as truth - and I sincerely believed for a long time that they were true - these things have held man back, and still do unfortunately. Life is eternal. No man dies. Even Christ himself said to the thief on the cross, “For today thou shalt be with me in Paradise.” He did not say tomorrow or next year or a thousand years hence, but today.

For it is, my friends, that faith can make us whole, but we must have faith in a reality, and not [in] something which has no foundation or basis. Christ himself was a great seer, a great prophet, a great teacher, and above all of this, he was a great humanitarian. He was more perhaps of a Socialist, than any Socialist could ever hope to be.

Christ was not concerned with material wealth or position. He was not concerned with vestments, with temples, as such. Christ even was human enough to lose his temper as when he drove the money changers out of the temple. We must realise what Christ is, and particularly from your aspect, what he was when on Earth. He was a man - not a myth. He was a man of reality - not a mystical creature, as the world would have you believe and he was not God himself upon Earth.

He was, as I see Christ, a human being who came into the world in a normal way, with the greatest power that man has ever experienced, but it was the power of the Holy Spirit, it was the power of God himself - but he used that power in such a way that men flocked to him.

There were many, of course, who did not and were afraid of him - the established religion, those of the established Church, those who considered that they were the wise ones, the men of position - because they realised that the things that he preached were dangerous to their position.

And so it is that I believe sincerely today, that if Christ were able to come back, if he were to come back in a material body, and do the same works as he did previously, the first people to condemn him would be the Church. And he would be much better received outside of it than ever he would be in, because the people would flock to him - those whose minds were open and ready to receive. But those whose minds were closed and held back by creed and dogma, would be the first to refuse him.

These things I am convinced about: that Christ himself was a man of great simplicity, a man of great piety, a man of great faith in the power of love, and had no consideration for the things of the Earth.

How many Churchmen are there in your world today, who can, with truth, say that they fall in with this conception? How many are they who seek place and position? How many are they who are attracted by vestment, by service, by the positions which they may hold.

I say to you that Christ is found in the hearts of all men whose minds are open and sincere, and anxious to understand and to see. 'Give me the child', as Christ himself, gathering together the children around him, said ‘for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven!'

What did he really mean by that, when all around also were the adults; grown men of stature, men of experience and worldly wisdom? What did he really mean? He meant that it is the child-like attitude, the childlike approach, the simplicity and the faith of a child that makes revelation and spiritual unfoldment and development possible - not the prejudiced, not the person whose mind is already formed and made up, and convinced within himself that he is right and others are wrong. The child-like attitude is important. Indeed, I would go as far as to say it is vital.

Until man can strip himself of his preconceived ideas and shake from himself the old beliefs and the old legends, until he can realise that he is, within himself, able to tune in to the highest, if only he will make it possible by the way in which he lives; if only he would think right, he would then act right and in consequence become right.

I say to you that man, if he wants to become an experienced person in the spiritual manner and sense, if he wants to become truly spiritualised, he must shed himself of all his material conceptions. God is. But no man has seen God. God is a force of power - a driving force that gives life to all things.

In your world nothing is lost. That which seems like death is but a dream. Man goes from one place to another. His thoughts are still there and he himself is released from the material things which bind and confine him. And yet your world should be a place of experience, essential experience and development, a preparedness, as it were, for the greater life yet to come.

When man leaves your world, as so often he does, with strong fixed prejudiced views, his task is difficult. He has to unlearn, as I did, many things and has to become like the child, [with an] open mind, full of the desire for real truth, full of the desire to progress. And oft-times [one is] very bitter, when you realise that for a lifetime on Earth you have given forth many teachings which have proved to be erroneous; untrue. When you realise that the fundamental faith which was true, has been distorted beyond all realisation.

I am very conscious of all these things. Indeed, many are they with me who feel as I do, that if we could come back with our present knowledge, how differently we would think and act, and how differently we would speak. The Church, if it is to survive, must rid itself of many of the old fallacies. It must band itself together in a strength based on truth, and it must not be afraid to stand, as Jesus stood, against the mob. It must be prepared at all times, no matter what the cost, to speak truthfully and act accordingly, and not be afraid of the reaction from various quarters.

When the Church gives forth Christ's teachings in its full intensity, then will it be rejuvenated, and then will it begin to climb upwards. When we see in your world the miseries, the uncertainties - when we see the possibilities that could be - such tremendous things that could come upon the Earth and its peoples through their ignorance - when we realise you are, in a sense, on the very brink of disaster again after two World Wars...

And yet the Church blesses the flags, blesses the guns, blesses the men in their uniforms - each nation accordingly. All this is contrary to Christ, the teachings of Christ and all that he stood for. The Prince of Peace. How can you be a subject of the Prince of Peace if you advocate these things? I say to you that man himself, in his blindness, has separated himself from God, and yet God is reaching out through his ministering ones to your world, endeavouring still to help. But those who minister in your world, their ministry, invariably and often, is at great fault.

I do not condemn, I do not blame. But I do say that they must look into their own hearts, and they must find again the Prince of Peace, and they must speak his words among his children, and they must stand firm together as one band, solid, in his service. While they are separated, while they wrangle together among themselves as to who is right and who is wrong, or their conception is right, and this other one is wrong - while they think and act as they do, so will the Churches gradually become more and more empty.

Here and there among [various] peoples there are good souls, kindly souls, sincere souls; endeavouring in their own fashion to do right. I know much good has come from the Church, but I think often of what greatness there could be and how much more could be achieved.

And I say to all those who may listen to my words - whether they believe or whether they not believe what I say, or believe even that it is I who speak to them - I say that you have within yourselves great opportunity to do God's will, to follow the teachings of the Master Christ; realising his humility, so must you also be, and if you give up many of the things which you know in your hearts are untrue, and seek him more and more and become like him, and be like the children, of whom he himself was so fond.

If you can be like the child, with an open heart and an open mind, with no strong preconceived ideas, if you have the faith of a child and the trust, then you can be led and guided, and out of all this evil can come a great good, and the world can be saved from itself and you shall find the path of peace and progression.

And we who come to you can link up with you again, and once again into your world could come, truly, the communion of the saints; once again can you take communion in the truest sense, and you can become one with us, and together we can overcome evil, and together we shall find that peace which the world cannot find. But in our own time, with your help and our guidance, and the peace that passeth all understanding, this indeed shall be made possible: the realisation of God's will and purpose for his children, now and forever.

My love and my blessing I give to all who listen to my voice. If I have said some things that seem hard, and if to some they seem impossible, and if to others they feel that that which I have said is at variance - I say to you, think on these things, turn them over in your minds, and in your hearts - seek for truth and realise that on your very doorstep, knocking, is Christ himself. Let him come in and make him a welcome visitor, and let him become part of your lives, and you shall then indeed become truly one of the flock - one of those whose task it is to do his will among his children. Yours is a great responsibility. Remember, that if you are to do this work, to do it well you must become like unto a child.

I only wish that I could do more than I can do. I have oft-times have wished that I could return to Earth and do my work again. So much would I do differently, and yet I know that, in my own fashion and in my own way, I did as I felt right. We are often, unfortunately, too late and yet, in a sense, it is not too late, for I am able to return, I am able to speak.

I say to you, concern yourselves not with names and personalities, but concern yourselves with the text and the message, and let it become a reality in your hearts, that it may change your world, and indeed make it a place worthy of God's children.

My love and blessing be upon you, now and always. Peace be with you. Farewell.

Greene:

Thank you.

Woods:

Uh, Dean Inge...

This transcript was created in 1960 by Betty Greene.

Edited and presented in 2021 by K.Jackson-Barnes.