Recorded: December 17th 1962
Later in the recording Flint can be heard coughing while Frédéric is speaking.
Read the full transcript below, as you listen...
Present: Leslie Flint, Rose Creet.
Communicators: Frédéric Chopin, Mickey.
Good evening Madame.
How are you this evening?
I'm very well, thank you.
Good. I am very well too and I am very happy to come and speak to you again tonight.
Frédéric ? Frédéric ? Is that, uh, Frédéric ?
You are finding a little difficulty at the moment to know who it is that is speaking to you Madame, ah?
Now don't start racking your brains because I tease you a little bit, ah. Rosa.
Alright. I call you Rosa. I call you Madame. What would you like me to call you tonight ?
Frédéric, it's you.
Of course it's me. But I like my little joke.
Oh, you are the limit. Oh!
I am always the limit. I am always interested in everything that goes on. I listen with great interest to everything that is said, you know, by different people that may come here. I may not always myself speak, but I am very interested in everything that transpires.
Fancy Valentino coming and speaking...
No, it is not very strange at all. After all is said and done, he is very much part of this work as you should know by now and, after all, he has been associated with us all...
...before on several occasions. After all, there was a time when we were very close he and I.
But you wouldn't know anything about that, would you ?
Why not ?
Oh, I don't know. I haven't told you everything, have I?
I know you haven't told me everything, but others have. Oh, by the way...
The Medium...the Medium and Valentino were once brothers and many centuries ago Valentino and I were very close.
In what way?
Oh, so close it was not possible for you to realise it. You don't understand how two people can be one person.
Was that the time when you were Benvenuto Cellini ?
You don't understand...you don't understand how the blending of souls and the blending of spirit is such, that one may share, temporarily, a physical body.
there is a great unity, when there is a great desire to do certain
work on a certain world level or a certain type of thing that is
important, sometimes, two people merge and they become for a time, in
a sense, from a material point of view, one person. But what is the
answer to all these peculiarities in human beings...
...these dual personalities...
...and also these people who are neither male nor female, these females that are more like men and so on ? All this is due to incarnations or much of it is due to incarnation and much of it is due to certain aspects of the self - asserting itself so much more than people, perhaps, can realise.
And sometimes a person may behave in a very strange manner and sometimes from a material point of view they may seem quite normal for a number of years and then, all of sudden, there seems to be a change take place and they become almost a different personality. What is this but dual personality ? Or what you would call dual personalities - where the entities from this side who are merging and working in a certain way, perhaps sometimes without even realising it, they create a peculiar physical reaction.
It isn't always possible of course for, sometimes, people who are utilising a body, whether it is one person or perhaps even two people. And there again, of course, there are these occasions when from this side we impress and we use an individual and they become so, sort of...I was going to use the word 'obsessed' but I don't want to give the wrong impression.
But the point is, that sometimes, for instance, when the Medium is not even working, when for some reason or another he doesn't even realise it, when he's not even thinking about this sort of thing - sometimes when he least expect it I pop out with some remark which is of myself. He doesn't even notice he's made it.
Really ? Oh, I see what you mean. But Frédéric was this the time when you were Benvenuto Cellini and Valentino the same ?
Yes. But you must try to remember - as I have tried and we have all tried, to try if we can, to make you understand - that sometimes there is a merging of mentalities; there is a merging of individuals; there is a merging of spirit force; there is a merging of vibrations.
Sometimes a body has...of course,
in that, we must first clarify this business of the body. This body
is something which is animated by life...
...and behind that body is the temperament, the individuality, the personality, the character. But behind all of that, are thought forces. But sometimes two people may merge and work on a certain body and give it life or be the life behind it. And then when the work is finished in that particular body the individuals may separate and go their...not exactly go their separate ways, but they become individual again. I wish I knew how to explain this to you.
Er...you just come down from your sphere of life, I suppose, and do you inhabit the body at the same time as...
There's no such thing as a spirit inhabiting a body: that is another fallacy of the fools that try to explain things. We don't actually inhabit the body, in the sense that some people seem to think, that we are in the body in the same sense that...er...people think that when a person dies we sort of, creep out of it.
Well, it's not like that. You cannot explain it in that way. What one must remember is that there is an etheric body (which is a duplicate of the material body) which is animated by the spirit, which has no body in the same sense. And that is not necessarily inside the physical body, but it is an animating force which is behind the etheric body and the material body. And when the physical body dies, the etheric body still retains its shape and form and it is that part of Man that is recognised as an individual. And it is that part which people communicate with.
instance, communication - whatever form it may take - when someone
comes from this side of life, it is the etheric body that is being
used which is being registered on the more material plane (or nearer
to the Earth condition anyway) and it is the animating force of the
spirit and the mentality behind it which - which gives life.
whole point is that there's too much talk about bodies. These bodies
are merely vehicles in their expression of the mentality and the mind
and the spirit... the vitality and the life... the vitalising force
which is life itself. But the etheric body is an important part of
Man of which he has no conception. People talk loosely about the
spirit, but the spirit is something which is indefinable in as much
that it has no shape or form. It is the etheric body that has the
shape or form.
But of course, when it enters into a more rarefied condition and atmosphere it takes on a form more purified and more rarefied. But it is still in a sense, the etheric body which has undergone a kind of change, which becomes a spiritual body. But the etheric body is what we ourselves merge and use when we enter into the physical body to make a contact.
And sometimes therefore,
because the mind of the individual, the spirit, the vitalising force,
the life, everything that is really fundamentally on the higher form
of Man, is the manifesting thing behind all life. It is the
manifesting thing behind all appearances of life in Man. The point
is, that the body itself - you call it by a name, you call it...you
have a shape and you have a form - but that in itself, is merely a
vehicle of the expression of the spirit.
And it is possible for two spirits to animate the physical body and the etheric body through the physical body. And the etheric body takes on a replica, as I've already said, of the material body. But what is important, are the mind and the spirit which is the motivating force behind a life.
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I see that. Yes, I see Frédéric.
Don't you know that there are people who have a simple individual life in your world to all outward experience...outward appearances...
...and then all of a sudden, something happens and they change and people do not understand it. Of course, there are the explanations which sometimes are quite true - that sometimes their body is taken over by an entity from this side who is Earthbound. Or perhaps it may be, that in the case of certain people who are motivated by the highest motives and become very spiritual in their development, that they are, as it were, merged into or at least, the spirit of the individual merges with the spirit of some higher entity and there is a blending.
see, if only one can get rid of this idea of the importance of the
physical body. For instance, if I am Cellini and also someone else is
also, in a sense, Cellini, we are talking of a physical body and an
etheric body. But what is important is that the motivating force
behind a person or what appears to be an individual can often be
several. But that does not mean to say that that individual has lost
his own personality or character. In fact it is only the merging, the
gradual changes that come through various incarnations and
experiences, that the spirit evolves and becomes, in itself, freed of
all these hindrances of the material and the astral conditions.
motivating forces which lie behind all life, they are in themselves
separate, but at the same time they are blended. When one can rid
oneself of this idea that an individual must be complete and
absolutely individual - there is no such thing in the higher sense,
of an individual. There is an individual outward form or shape which
to all appearances appears as an individual, but at the same time we
realise, more and more as we progress, that we are all part of a
great blending of souls and spirit and that we...we are all
contributing in some shape or form. But in the earlier stages of
unfoldment and development, before one reaches a certain point in
one's development shall we say, there are often two or three
animating forces or spirits behind one what may appear to be an
outlet such as a body or an etheric double or body.
point is, that there are many forms of life and all these forms of
life have their substance and have their meaning and their purpose
for a time. But as you progress you begin to realise that you are
part of all sorts of other things and people and conditions.
You must never concede the fact, that because a person is named so and so, because they are to all outward appearances such and such a person, that they are necessarily completely and absolutely that one person. In a sense, you are only seeing a small aspect of that person. You're not seeing the complete person. You cannot. You are in a world of three dimension.
When you get outside three dimension to four dimension, when you realise the immensity of this, you'll realise that it is futile and stupid to try and put one person in a body and then say that this is this person. You are only seeing an aspect of a person. You're not seeing the complete. You are not realising fully the contribution that is made by all sorts of peoples and all sorts of influences from this side. And in a body there may be, manifesting, various forces, all at work for the common good, all in harmony, always striving to express and to create a greater personality than that which you can visualise while in the material body.
material body restricts. In my own work on your side I was so
restricted by...by the material body, but all the time I was
conscious of the fact that other forces were at work within me and
around me. I didn't understand it and I didn't realise it, but I
realised that I was trying to give so much and I could only give so
little, because of the lack of the piano, for instance, in my music.
But there was so much I wanted to find and so much I wanted to do and so much I wanted to express, but there was too many limiting forces in a material sense. But once I could escape from the material body, once I could enter into the greater, fuller realisation of things and truth - and then I began to assimilate more and more knowledge and experience over here and once I was more tuned in and more able - I was able to perceive and to see and to be able to do. There are no restrictions here. We are not in...we are not confined to three dimensions and physical bodies.
But when you were alive on the Earth did you...were there other etheric, spirit, bodies - etheric bodies that influenced you ? There must have been.
Yes. But I did not understand it, but I do now. And that is why I think it is so important for us, always to try and realise that although we may retain an outward form and shape and be recognised - when we wish to be that is - to be recognised by individuals as a certain person, known and loved by certain peoples at certain times, we can be recognised and we can lower, in a sense if you like, our vibration (I can only use that expression) so that the individuals that love us and we love too, of course, will be able to say, 'Ah, this is so and so. This is the person I love.'
But when they too have grown and expanded their knowledge and they too have progressed, they realise that it is not individuals that are so important. It is the realisation that we are all, in some miraculous way, of the same spirit and that when we are loving one person we are also, without even realising perhaps at first, loving others. We are loving everything that is of life, everything that is linked with us. Because we are, all the time, expressing not only ourselves, but we're expressing other facets of nature, other aspects of truth, other aspects of individuals that we have known and loved and who are part of us.
see, that is why we talk about this family - we talk about this
group. When we talk about individuals and individual lives and what
we were once and what we may have accomplished, we are also concerned
and all the time hoping, to make it understood that we're all
responsible, one to the other, for what we are and what we may
become. We're not moving along. We're not, sort of, just working out
our own salvation. All the time we are assisting and unconsciously
perhaps, in the early stages, assisting other people to work out
That's why this marvellous thing is. That we are all so tuned in and so blended and the more one develops...developed one becomes the more one realises this. That's why when we talk about incarnations there is an importance attached to them, of course, but all the time we are working out our own unfoldment, but as we're doing that we are also consciously and unconsciously affecting others and helping them to work out theirs too, you know. I wish I could explain this to you.
You are explaining very, very well indeed and very fast !
Well, you see, I know there are things which I think was told you, some long time back now, that would confuse; at times would be a little difficult to appreciate or understand. But what is important is to realise that we are all in tune. I think once one can realise that we are all part of the compass; we're all part of the - of the harmony; we're all part of the construction, if you like, that...one note on its own is useless. There must be a blending of notes. There must be a harmonising and tuning in. Sometimes the notes can jangle because, perhaps sometimes, they're not played in tune, in harmony.
That is where there is disharmony and you get
that among people, even people within our own group. Sometimes there
is a jingling, a jangling and a disharmony, an out-of tune-ness, but
the point is that it's because that particular member has not yet
been tuned into our vibrations, has not been brought up to a certain
level so that, that person can be in harmony and be contributing to
all that we're trying to express and to do.
know the importance of each one of us. But at the same time we
realise that we cannot and we must not expect to be able to achieve
or to do or to become completely and absolutely as one, until the
rest have risen to a certain height. We must try to forget self. At
times we repeat this: we have to forget self. But at the same time as
we forget self, we have to realise that in doing that, we are
unfolding ourselves. The moment we forget self, you have been told
often, we are then on the right path for progression. We are on the
path of spiritual awareness and consciousness. We are unfolding
within ourselves and expressing more than ever we could.
The more selfish a person is...that is why it is so wrong for so many people to think that the road of spiritual progression is that you must withdraw from humanity, that you must shut yourself away and that you must live to yourself; that you must tune, as it were, in harmony all the time mentally and spiritually with God. And it is not the way. It is not the true way. The true way is to realise humanity's faults and failings, to realise the immensity of the task and to go out into the world and to battle with it and to fight it; to fight all the things that beset you, because while you are contributing towards other people's lives and happiness you are unconsciously but, nevertheless, most definitely unfolding your own self.
Yes I see that.
It's the only way, you know.
Yes. I understand that Frédéric.
When we are on Earth as individuals - perhaps when our consciousness is not aware of the tremendous importance of previous existences, when our conception of life is limited and we are often sad and often unhappy and we feel sometimes that we are... well, leading a useless existence, perhaps; sometimes we feel that we've accomplished nothing; sometimes we feel that there has been no point in our lives - we do not see, we do not realise that possibly what seems to have been failure is not necessarily so in a spiritual sense.
It has been a complete and absolute failure, if
you like, materially as you see things materially, because you judge
(not that you do, but many people judge things) on a material level.
But even you sometimes, you say, 'Oh, I have not done anything. What
use am I...' and so on and so on and so on.
then again you don't know, you don't fully realise that you have
contributed a great deal in many ways to other people: sometimes
consciously and sometimes very much unconsciously. But we are all
vehicles. You see, when we are on the Earth in bodies we are vehicles
of the expression and the unfoldment of the spirit.
We are, if you like to say so, sometimes it is true we seem to be limited and yet in a way there are many things that we might accomplish and might do if we realise within ourselves that there is no limit; only that which we set if we are foolish enough to set it. But once we cast aside all the prejudices and when we...we make our minds open to receive and we make ourselves willing to work and strive for the things that we know are good and fine which will benefit, not necessarily only ourselves, but for others...
When we blend, when we give out, when we are expressing, when we are doing the things that are the imperative things that are urging themselves through us, so when the spirit which is the divine force which is flowing through us, when we are giving out when we are expressing...
There were times when I was able to receive this inspiration and this
force with great intensity and I would work for hours and forget time
and forget everything: forget to eat, forget everything. And then I
would be exhausted and I'd have to sleep. But then the next day I
realised that that which I had achieved was really great. There were
times when I knew my greatness, but then again I realised deep within
myself it was not me.
Although I had the praise, like so many artists
have the praise for much they have done, in a sense, it is not
necessarily only work though. One realises the immense power of love
and the tremendous force and vitality which flows, which comes. It's
something that falls upon us. It's something that just happens in
such a strange way. And we know it is there and we know it is the
moment to work, the moment to achieve.
an artist, artists always know the right moments that come upon them
when they can achieve and when they cannot. That is why an artist
cannot work just to the clock. You do not say to an artist, 'Sit down
and compose this or do that...' The artist cannot do it just like
that. There is always the spirit that is there, that is bursting
through, that is expressing. And then the physical body can take no
more. It must give up for a little while. It must relax. It must
allow itself to become, sort of, settled and become, as it were, able
to readjust itself.
You know, if only I could explain this thing that
the world calls genius. It is something the world never understands.
Why it is that one man can be a genius and another man can be a
failure? Why it is that one man who has great ability and yet never
seems to achieve anything and yet there are these souls who seem to
achieve such remarkable things in their lifetime?
There are so many that one can point to: great artists, great composers, great poets, great... all kinds of greatness, in different forms, different ways. But they are all victims, if you like to use the term, of what we term or what you term "inspiration" which after all is but the spirit that moves and animates; which comes from not only oneself but comes from outside oneself, comes from varying forces of individual forces too of peoples also. That is all that we are trying to express all the time and that we cannot expect all these bodies to be...to be...
they are clumsy things and they are not always easy to command and
easy to use. If only I could explain to you how it is that these
things can be: how it can come about that even the most extraordinary
person who you would not think could do anything, who appears on the
surface to have nothing to offer, and yet that person all of sudden
becomes animated by something which is obviously not of themselves
which makes them do something that is tremendous, which causes the
world to sit up and acclaim him as a great poet or a great artist or
a great writer or a great musician - whatever it is.
If only you can realise it is this great wonderful force which is life which is animating us on the highest level. When this comes to us then, indeed, are we really making the tremendous progress that is so necessary in our evolution, our development. If only you could understand this. Oh, I don't know how to explain it to you.
But these people who suddenly get inspirations or suddenly become famous, they must have something in them to encourage other entities to them.
Of course they must have something, but at the same time it is that they are often very old souls and that they are reborn into the world for a purpose. I don't say in every instance, but in many instances old souls who are returned to the Earth in a physical body, they are chosen sometimes and sometimes they have been sent back to do a specific work.
But sometimes because of the limitations, what seem to be the limitations of the body, they do not seem to achieve very much for a time. Then all of a sudden the tremendous power of the spirit is there and there you find that they begin to burst their bonds, they begin to give forth these things. It's very difficult to make you understand what I'm trying to explain, but I'm trying very hard.
Yes, I know. I shall play this over afterwards three or four times. It'll sink into my head in some way...
I think once people can rid themselves of the idea that because they are born and they are baptised and they grow up and they develop certain personalities, certain characteristics, that that is the person. That is only an aspect; only an aspect. That is not the complete. It is only an aspect. It is only one example, one part. It is what is revealed - can we put it like that - revealed through the limited conditions of the Earthly body. But behind that there are all sorts of influences brought to bear, all sorts of individuals even.
cannot understand this blending: how they are on different levels and
yet all linked and tuning in, gradually focusing their attention and
their thoughts and their inspiration; how they are gradually sending
through, as it were, all these things which make the individual, as
far as the human body will allow and the circumstances of their life,
where they are; helping them to become not only great artists but
also great in many other ways.
The Earthly body is a vehicle. We must look upon it... You can call it a name, you can call it Rosie, you can call it Frédéric, you can call it what you like, but it is a vehicle. It is a vehicle that becomes loved by people and naturally, because you love the individual that shines through the body and the spirit that is manifesting there, you love. But the point is that the body, in itself, is but the shell.
If only you could realise how the etheric body is so beautiful and so glowing and yet even that is not the reality: that is only the other shell on a higher level. And when you reach the true spirit of the individual, once you really are in complete harmony and tune and blending with that, you realise that you are one. Ah, I wish I knew how to explain this tremendous thing.
But this group of ours Frédéric... Now, there's a lot of you over there and there are a lot of us over here. When all of us from here get over there what happens ?
Well I think eventually when all the group are completely in harmony, completely in tune, then we shall, not only because of the blending of our personalities and our individual characters and our development of soul and experience...we shall then form a unified whole - if I put it like that - which will enter into a different rate...state of being on a much higher plane still and we shall evolve further.
I see. And then you don't have any form then at all ?
I'm not suggesting that you will not have form. But if only one can appreciate the need to realise this. In some measure you should understand this because you cannot really say when you love a person, that you know a person - because you know certain things about a person, certain aspects of their character; you sort of touch certain parts of them and you become conscious and aware, but at the same time there are things that are mysterious which you sense and you feel but you can't touch. You cannot really touch a person. You can touch the physical body and in the expression of the physical love. But what is it, this tremendous something that when a person's body ceases to function...
...this tremendous something that is the reality? When it is finished functioning through the body it is inanimate and has no life, no meaning. You're, in a sense... You see you must try to realise that it is our souls that are blending, it is our souls that are acknowledging each other, it is our souls that are responsible for everything and are conscious of all things. The bodies that are useful to us are given to us for a time but they are not the reality.
No but what confuses me is not the bodies but the etheric body and the spiritual body and goodness knows... How many other bodies ?
Well, there is the Earthly body. There is the etheric body which is in the etheric atmosphere which constitutes the replica on a higher level of the physical body. And there is the animating force which vitalises, which is the spiritual - I won't call it a 'body' but it is a spiritual force which animates. But you see whenever we want to be recognised or whenever we want to be known, we animate and use the etheric body.
Oh I see. How do they use them ?
By thought forces: by the power and the realisation of self. You see...[Laughs]...we come back to self, in a sense, because we cannot avoid it when we talk in an Earthly language. But when we want to be recognised we think of self, but not in a selfish sense. We think of self as we wish to be recognised. That's why we can assume; that's why I have assumed, over a long period, different selves.
Yes. I wonder how many selves you have been, Frédéric.
Oh. I don't know. Perhaps, twenty, thirty. I don't know. I can't remember all. So perhaps those that are less important have been diminished. Because when a thing ceases to be important, when it ceases to have any bearing or meaning, when a thing has finished its purpose, it ceases to exist.
But while one
thinks and one remembers and one has desires in regard to a certain
life or a certain form or whatever you like, whatever it may be; it
doesn't just have to be an individual. It could be anything. It could
be an article of clothing. It can be a piece of furniture. It can be
a certain type of piano. I mean, over here I have various pianos, I
have various instruments and as I've told you on my highest level of
development and evolution I don't need a piano.
But if I come down to an etheric condition then I have a replica of various pianos that I like - according to the plane upon which I'm manifesting, according upon the plane upon which, perhaps, I am giving a concert, if you like. On that vibration there is a piano that is right for me and for that particular recital, in that particular atmosphere.
And it's just made for you, or just what ? How do you get it ?
No it is made...It depends. If it is on a very much lower level it is constructed...
But if it is on a slightly higher level it is done by the very vitalising power of thought. Because after all is said and done, thought is the creative thing behind all life. And as...if your thoughts are high enough and real enough and solid enough, if you like, then the solidity of your thoughts can create solid things from what you would term - from nothingness. But it is the reality of oneself and the power of one's thoughts and desire that can make possible that creative substance.
When we come and talk to you, we concentrate out thoughts, we think and we think on an etheric level which also, at the same time, can be rather limiting to what we can get through to you. That is what has been our trouble for a long time, is to be able to vibrate on a lower Earthly level or on a, shall we say, a level nearer the Earth and at the same time think on a higher level, because it is like do two opposite things at the same time.
But that is what we have been struggling with, what we have been building up for. That's why I think now that we have accomplished a great deal more, you will see the gradual unfoldment of our knowledge to you on this etheric level, but from a higher spiritual thought plane. Leave it to me !
[Unintelligible]...I can't stay no more now...
...but we'll talk about this again on Thursday, is it you say? And don't worry if this or that person comes because everyone who comes has something of good to say. They may not always succeed but they have good intentions.
Oh, that I know, that I know. I welcome everyone.
I know you do, but don't worry about anything. It's all going to be alright and you will find that all these little bits together will piece up and they will make sense. Things which were obscure last week will become clearer the following week or a month later. Leave it to me. I must go. The power's going. See you again on Thursday. Goodnight. And I'm glad to see you sitting in a chair. Goodnight.
Bye bye Mickey, dear.
Huh, dear ! Cyclone isn't he.
Dear oh dear. It was very good wasn't it ?
Mmm. When you're ready I'll put the light on.
Yes. I think I'm ready.
Wait a minute Mamoose though... it's been a little...
Oh, I'm fully wide awake now.
You are ?
Mmm...don't care to see how much tape there is left.
This transcript was created by a good friend of the Leslie Flint Educational Trust, Mr Simon Lovelock.
Grateful thanks also go to Joëlle Cerfoglia.