Ginette Spanier
1904 - 1988
Photographed at a book signing in 1959.
“Mickey, I think you’re a
little wretch.”
In this rare and very revealing recording of a 'blank sitting'
we hear Leslie Flint and his friend Ginette Spanier
settle down for a private séance.
The tape recorder is checked and made ready, the curtains are drawn
and the two friends enjoy some private and very natural conversation,
while they wait for Mickey and other spirits to communicate.
As the time passes, the medium and his sitter wait patiently,
and they talk about theatrical friends, holiday plans and even the weather.
After a while, Leslie explains how he has often waited up to an hour
before the spirit voices begin to speak.
At the end of the recording we hear Leslie leave the room, as he joins Bram Rogers and shares the news of what happened...
Please read the full transcript below as you listen...
Flint:
This séance was recorded on the 3rd of May 1978, Medium Leslie Flint.
Rogers:
That's
right...and I'll just, yes...
Now, um...
Flint:
You're
all set now?
Rogers:
...when...when
it's dark you've just gotta...
Flint:
Oh,
I’ve gotta...oh I've got to switch that up...?
Rogers:
...you
just switch it up...yeah, 'cause it’s already plugged in and
everything...
[Click]
Spanier:
Voilà...
Rogers:
[Laughing]
Rogers:
[to
dog] Come on Kit, come on...[claps hands]...that’s
right.
Flint:
Okay...
Rogers:
Do
you want water - a glass of water?
Flint:
Give
me a glass of water, just in case.
Rogers:
Do
you think you want – would want a glass of water Ginette?
Spanier:
I
don’t think so.
Rogers:
No?
Flint:
Well
you never know, one of us might faint!
Rogers:
Oh!
Spanier:
Yes...[Laughing]
Flint:
[Laughing]
Spanier:
Then
what do we do?
Flint:
We'll
just wait till we have to be revived!
Rogers:
Wait
till I have to revive you!
Flint:
This water tastes
nice, what's in it?
Rogers:
It’s
got a drop of lemon juice...
Flint:
Is that what it
is?
[Door
slams loudly]
[Curtains pulled closed]
Flint:
Oh
well.
Spanier:
I’m
delighted you were kind enough to give me this sitting.
Flint:
Well
why not? I can’t think of anyone I’d like to sit for more than
you.
We’re all set, that’s running isn't it?
[Lamp switched off]
Spanier:
Et
voilà...
Flint:
Ahh...
[Long
pause]
Flint:
You like your new home?
Spanier:
Oh
it is absolutely super...
Flint:
[Coughing]
Spanier:
...it
is really marvellous.
Flint:
Is
it? Good.
Spanier:
Yes.
Really lovely. Small and couldn’t...I mean, that was found for me -
that I can tell you.
Flint:
Mmm...and
it's easier to run I should think, not too much...
Spanier:
Oh
and anyway, now I am alone...you see my husband used to practice in
the old apartment, but it was much too big. We had nine rooms, and
this is two rooms and very pretty.
[Short
pause]
Flint:
How
old is Sir Laurence now, seventy?
Spanier:
He’s
going to be seventy-one.
Flint:
Seventy-one, ah...
Spanier:
He’s
going to be seventy-one, I think in April.
Flint:
Really,
mmm...
Spanier:
He's
a dear man.
Flint:
I remember, almost his first beginnings, you know. At the old Vic.
Spanier:
Me
too...and when he played with John Gielgud.
Flint:
Oh
yes way back. I remember his first Hamlet there and all his very
early roles.
Spanier:
Wonderful
actor, wonderful. And still as keen on it as ever...
Flint:
Oh yes.
I
remember the last...not the last time, perhaps the time before...when
this friend came - chauffeur bloke - uh, something cropped up, uh,
Mickey - to do with Sir Laurence - Mickey came through and said,
'oh', he said, 'there’s a man here who says that Sir Laurence...'
or Mr. Olivier, whatever he called him...'has got a sword that
belonged to me...'
And he said, 'there's something wrong
with...' and Mickey couldn’t pronounce the word properly -
'scabbard' he said.
'It’s [got] something wrong with it and he's
got it. And this man says that he used to use this sword.'
Well,
he told Sir Laurence Oliver and the chauffeur about this and Laurence
said, 'well if you go up...' - I don't know it was on the second or
third floor - but he says, 'in a room there, in a glass case, there
is a sword and the scabbard is very worn. It belonged to
Edmund Kean, the actor.'
Spanier:
Of
course, it was one that...
Flint:
Yeah
and, uh, the chauffeur knew absolutely nothing about this.
Spanier:
No.
Flint:
Neither,
of course, did I. But, evidently, he’s got the sword that Edmund
Kean used on the stage in Richard III.
Spanier:
And
I think the great - I have...I’ve seen it.
Flint:
You
have?
Spanier:
Oh
yes.
Flint:
Ah...
Spanier:
Because
it was handed down to him, I don’t know who by.
Flint:
Oh.
Spanier:
It
might have been Hawtrey, I am not certain.
Flint:
Uh-huh...
Spanier:
And
now he’ll have to hand it on to somebody else.
Flint:
Really?
Spanier:
I
don’t know who he’s going to hand it on to.
Flint:
Good
Lord...
Spanier:
Maybe
to a museum, I’m not certain.
Flint:
Could
be, yes.
Spanier:
[Coughing]
Flint:
Well,
he’s had lots of different messages.
Spanier:
How
wonderful, I’m so pleased.
Flint:
[Loud
coughing]
Spanier:
That
must be...it must make a great difference to him.
Flint:
Mmm...
Spanier:
I
really love him dearly.
Flint:
Do
you know Michael Redgrave at all?
Spanier:
Yes,
but not very....
Flint:
No.
Spanier:
I
mean, um, casually more...
Flint:
Yes.
Spanier:
While
Laurence Oliver was and is...and was one of our greatest friends and
they - he stayed with us so much you see...
Flint:
Yes.
Spanier:
We
used to spend all our holidays together and of course he has remained
one of my great loves. We communicate sort of regularly...
Flint:
Yes.
Spanier:
...but
not frequently.
Flint:
No,
no.
[Loud coughing]
[Pause]
Flint:
I
used to like Michael Redgrave, um, many years ago I used to see a lot
of his plays. But I’m told he is a very sad man now, he drinks too
much or something.
Spanier:
I
believe so.
Flint:
It
is very sad.
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
And
he has difficulty in remembering his lines.
Spanier:
Yes,
um, that’s been going on for some time, not being able to remember
his lines. Sad...[somebody with his talent]...
Flint:
Sad
family really isn’t it? And Vanessa is always in trouble.
Spanier:
Yes,
she’s a great actress.
Flint:
Mmm.
Her 'Rosalind' was marvellous.
Spanier:
Uh,
she’s in a film in London now.
Flint:
Is
she?
Spanier:
The
one for which she got the Oscar in America.
Flint:
Mmm
hmm.
Spanier:
Called
'Julia', it's a beautiful film.
Flint:
Really?
Spanier:
Mmm.
[Pause]
Flint:
I
don’t suppose you have much time to do theatres and things now?
Spanier:
You? I don’t wonder.
Flint:
No,
you dear, not me.
Spanier:
Me!
Oh well I'm not so keen on the - the theatre in France.
Flint:
No?
Spanier:
But,
uh, when I come here I manage to see one or two things.
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
Because the standard here is fantastic. But I must come often, it's silly to wait six months to come to England.
Flint:
It
must be very difficult for you to get away isn't it?
Spanier:
Yes,
but I just must make the effort.
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
If
I'm any good, I must be able to delegate authority.
Flint:
Mmm.
[Pause]
Flint:
You
got a good staff?
Spanier:
Yes,
charming.
[Pause]
Flint:
[Loud coughing]
[Long silence until 11:45]
Flint:
[Loud coughing]
[Long silence until 20:24]
Flint:
[Loud coughing]
[Distant sounds of traffic
outside and the sound of Flint breathing until 27:20]
Flint:
Mickey’s a long time...
Spanier:
Yes.
Do you remember, it's happened before?
Flint:
Pardon?
Spanier:
It's
happened, several...I mean...
Flint:
Really?
Spanier:
Do
you think it’s hopeless?
Flint:
I
forget you know. When...when you came last time did we get results?
Spanier:
It
was fabulous last time.
Flint:
It was?
Spanier:
The
last time two times were fabulous.
Flint:
Oh.
But you have sat, when...
Spanier:
I’ve
had...twice where nothing's happened.
Flint:
Really?
Spanier:
Yeah...
Flint:
Oh dear,
Of course, you see, one never knows.
Spanier:
Of
course not.
Flint:
You
can’t demand it of course or...
I don’t know whether this
means anything, but for what it’s worth, but...
Spanier:
You
always are wonderful with me.
Flint:
Well,
I don’t know whether there's anything to this or not...
Spanier:
Yes?
Flint:
But
I...I know it sounds crackers to say this, but I saw a most beautiful
peacock with its tail all spread out, you know?
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
Beautiful.
Whether the symbol...it's symbolic of something, I haven’t a clue.
Some people are very superstitious about peacock feathers.
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
But
um...
Spanier:
We
did go one...I mean, there was a hotel where there...and then next
door there was a castle where there were peacocks.
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
We
went there ages ago.
Flint:
No,
I should imagine that, if it's anything at all, it is something
heavily symbolic in some way. I don’t quite know what but, uh, I
don’t know what it's all about, if anything.
I'm
always a little doubtful if I get what I call 'mental pictures' and
things. Although often they turn out to be correct, but I am so used
to Mickey and others talking, and that to me is the most important
thing and more impressive...
Spanier:
But
you’ve been wonderful with me often.
Flint:
Have
I?
Spanier:
Yes,
when nothing else works...
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
...you have extraordinary feelings.
Flint:
Really?
Spanier:
Yeah.
Flint:
Well
I forget. I get a...I remember some things very well...
Spanier:
Of
course, but you can’t remember...
Flint:
[Sniffing
and sighing]
You're working on a new book are you?
Spanier:
No.
Flint:
Oh
you’re not?
Spanier:
Frankly
not.
Flint:
Oh?
Spanier:
I
don't I think...I think I've said everything I’ve got to say.
Flint:
Ah.
Spanier:
And,
uh...so I’m just running this place, learning this new job and,
uh...it’s very absorbing.
[Pause]
Flint:
[Yawning]
Spanier:
I
feel so much that I would like to call them...
Flint:
I beg your pardon?
Spanier:
One
feels like calling them and saying come and talk to me.
Flint:
Ah.
Well
I always feel that, if they can come, they will.
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
And
though, possibly, there are times when, to all outward appearances,
we get little or nothing I’m quite sure they are there.
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
And
their disappointment must be just as great as ours, if not greater...
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
...if
they can’t make it.
Spanier:
If
they've not been able to get through...
Flint:
We
don’t know, of course, what the problems are.
Spanier:
No
of course.
[Pause]
[Flint sniffing and sighing - otherwise, silence until until 38:53]
Spanier:
Does
it sometimes happen that they come as late as this?
Flint:
Well,
quite frankly, the whole thing is so variable that one really never
knows. Sometimes we’ve sat for an hour and nothing has happened,
then all of a sudden something does, you know. Another time you’ll
sit and within four or five minutes or something...
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
...a
very short time anyway, something transpires; Mickey comes or
something, you know. I find that there are no hard and fast rules and
one never can really be sure as to what...in fact, one never knows
what may or may not happen. Usually Mickey comes fairly quickly, well
usually - well it might be in quarter of an hour, ten minutes...
[Pause]
Flint:
[Loud
coughing]
[Pause]
Flint:
Mickey?
Mickey?
[Silence
until 43.14]
Flint:
What
time do you have to be at the Cook sisters?
Spanier:
Oh
I don’t want to keep you longer than you can...
Flint:
Pardon?
Spanier:
...uh,
any time.
Flint:
Oh
I see.
Spanier:
That
isn’t the point, I mean if you feel that there's nothing...
Flint:
Oh
no, no, no. I’m not worried about time, my time is my own. No, I
was just concerned about you, I didn’t know if you...
Spanier:
Oh
no they, um, anytime, but, er, if you think it's hopeless then...
Flint:
Oh
no I don’t mind sitting. I’m quite happy to wait. Maybe they are
having problem or difficulty and maybe they'll overcome whatever it
is if - should there be any problem and come through. Sometimes we've
sat for, oh, three quarters of an hour before anything happened. We
don’t know how difficult or what their problems may be.
Spanier:
No,
of course.
Flint:
All
we have to do is just patiently sit and hope that they'll be able to
manifest.
Spanier:
Yes.
[Pause]
Flint:
You
meeting them in town are you?
Spanier:
No,
uh, at their flat.
Flint:
Oh,
their flat.
Spanier:
We
are having a little cold meal there...
Flint:
Oh
I see.
Spanier:
So
we can talk, you see...
Flint:
Oh,
I see.
Spanier:
...and
listen to some of their tapes.
[Pause]
Spanier:
I
haven’t seen them, well, since the last time I was in London...
Flint:
Mmm?
Were you not on television some little while back?
Spanier:
Pardon?
Flint:
Were
you not on television?
Spanier:
Yes,
uh, well...
Flint:
Some
little while back...
Spanier:
Well
that was...
Flint:
I
have some vague remembrance of it.
Spanier:
Yes.
Yes and I’ve been on the radio here too...
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
...about
two weeks ago.
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
Television;
I don’t know if I’ve been on television since I last sat because
I...last time I sat, from what I gathered on the tape, I had been on
television the day before.
Flint:
Ah,
yes. I had some vague remembrance of, I couldn’t remember whether
it was television or whether it was radio.
Spanier:
The
radio; I have been on this program about two weeks ago, I think.
Flint:
Really?
Spanier:
It’s
called, 'Unaccustomed As I Am' - which is about lecturing.
Flint:
Oh
that must...
Spanier:
I
did the American bit.
Flint:
Oh
that must be what it was then.
[Pause]
Flint:
Do
you think you may go back to the States at all?
Spanier:
Oh,
I've become awfully un-adventuresome about travelling.
Flint:
[Laughing]
Spanier:
Though
I did...though I did go to...
Flint:
Yes.
Spanier:
Barbados
this summer...
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
…this winter.
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
Which
cut the winter beautifully, but, um, I always say I’ll go.
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
And
then I don’t. I have many friends there.
[Pause]
Spanier:
And
do you think you go in the winter?
Flint:
Well
we think, I feel, Bram feels that, if we go, the ideal time would be
to go, say, to California for January, February and March...
Spanier:
Absolutely.
Flint:
...to
miss the three worst months here, you know.
Spanier:
It’s
so lovely...
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
...getting
away from...I know how, well, I was only three weeks in Barbados.
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
To
bathe and have some sun!
Flint:
Yes.
I
don’t know, the climatic conditions seem to be changing worldwide.
This winter...
Spanier:
It’s very changeable.
Flint:
...they
had a very bad winter in California...
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
...rain
and landslides and...
Spanier:
Terrible.
Flint:
...all
sorts of things.
Spanier:
And
unbelievable snow in the east.
Flint:
Mmm.
That must have been frightening, some places were very bad.
Spanier:
Mmm.
Flint:
We
had a bad winter in a way, over here. But London seemed to have
escaped the snow more or less, you know.
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
But
it was very cold and miserable and depressing.
Spanier:
There
hasn’t been any feeling of spring in the air.
Flint:
No,
it’s been shocking. Usually this time we have beautiful sun and
warmth...
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
...and
flowers all coming up and...
Spanier:
And
I mean, the chestnut trees in Paris...
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
Um,
will be prac...the flowers will be over and we won’t have enjoyed
them because of the rain.
Flint:
No?
It’s sad.
I suppose Paris, like everywhere
else, is changing?
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
I
believe the Champs-Elysées
is very much changed.
Spanier:
Oh
goodness, yes.
It’s still a beautiful city.
Flint:
Yes
of course.
Spanier:
But
the Champs-Elysées
is terribly tatty. It's like Oxford Street.
Flint:
Pity
isn't it? You should have thought they would have protected those
lovely old buildings.
Spanier:
But
still, if you go by the river and in the evening, on a nice evening,
then that's still beautiful with the Louvre.
Flint:
Uh-huh...
Spanier:
[unintelligible]
it really is beautiful there. But still, all the streets are...
Flint:
But
you don’t get the muggings and things that we get...
Spanier:
Oh
yes, you do.
Flint:
You
do?
Spanier:
I
had my bag stolen.
Flint:
Really?
Spanier:
Yes,
a cyclist - motor cyclist, like in Italy.
Flint:
Good
heavens.
Spanier:
They
go up on to the path and if you, um, if you have it hanging on your
arm...
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
Yip
- and it’s gone.
Flint:
Tut.
Good Lord!
Huh.
[Pause]
Flint:
Rome
is in a terrible state isn’t it? Italy. Frightening.
Spanier:
Oh
ghastly.
Flint:
Absolutely
frightening, Rome.
Spanier:
Ghastly.
Flint:
I
don’t know what’s happening to the world, I really don’t.
Spanier:
It
really is in a, I mean, a mess.
Flint:
Mmm.
Well perhaps I’m old fashioned or something, I don’t know what it
is, but I think the permissive society has got a lot to do with it. I
think we are too easy, too lenient and give way too much...
Spanier:
I
agree with you...
Flint:
To
the young,
Spanier:
...completely.
Flint:
I
believe in freedom, but I think...
Spanier:
Oh
I’m glad that I was brought up severely.
Flint:
I mean, I, I, I used to get occasionally caned at school, but I don’t think it did me any harm.
Not
that I think that one should cane children unnecessarily, obviously,
but...I don’t know, I just feel somehow with the permissive
society, the rot has set in, you know.
Spanier:
I
agree with you completely.
Flint:
I
mean in the old days...
Spanier:
Completely.
Flint:
...the
young people, they stayed at home with their parents...
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
...and
they were looked after and they took an interest in their home and
their parents. But now they leave home and they set up, well I don’t
know, some back room with somebody and they live promiscuously, and
all the rest of it. I just don’t understand the mentality of the -
a lot of the young. Perhaps that’s because I’m out of date,
but...
Spanier:
Well
I feel like you about it, completely.
Flint:
I’m
sure that this permissive society is the root of a lot of our
trouble.
I believe in freedom. I think that one should be free, as
far as is possible, providing you don’t hurt anyone else in the
consequence, you know, but...
Spanier:
One
should have a little discipline, don’t you think?
Flint:
Mmm.
Well
London has become frightful now, what with muggings and one thing or
other. Dreadful. Well I hardly ever go out unless I have to, and then
I usually have a cab there and back.
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
[Loud
coughing]
Mickey, I think you’re a little wretch.
Spanier:
[Sniggering]
Flint:
You
really are.
Spanier:
Oh
yes Mickey. I was so looking forward to talking to you.
Flint:
When
do you go away?
Spanier:
Tomorrow.
Flint:
Oh,
you go back tomorrow?
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
Oh.
Tut.
Spanier:
Tomorrow
evening.
Flint:
Huh!
[Yawns]
[Pause]
Spanier:
Will
you be here in August, if I come August?
Flint:
Uh,
yes, I’m going to, for one week, to the Edinburgh Festival.
Spanier:
Oh,
yes.
Flint:
The
last...well, I’m going on the 28th of August until...
Spanier:
Oh
yes.
Flint:
...the
following Saturday or whenever that is.
Spanier:
Interesting.
Do you lecture a lot?
Flint:
No,
I don’t...I haven’t done anything for, oh, eighteen months or
something. And now it’s suddenly started up again. I’ve had
several requests and I thought, well, when they asked me to do the
Edinburgh Festival, uh, I thought well this is really something.
Spanier:
Of
course it is.
Flint:
Because
it's one of the things, you know.
Spanier:
Definitely.
Flint:
And
it's never...they’ve never asked ever before any psychic or
anything like that, to do anything.
Spanier:
I
think it’s wonderful.
[Loud
clink of a glass of water]
Spanier:
I
expect to be back, beginning of August, so if I may write to you when
I know the dates?
Flint:
Well
you know I will always see you whenever it’s...
Spanier:
Thank
you.
Flint:
I
mean, I’d make it at midnight if I had to.
Spanier:
Oh gosh!
Flint:
No
I would honestly, uh, but, um...
Spanier:
There’s nothing one...
Flint:
I
think one has to accept the obvious fact Ginette, that one cannot,
with this subject, guarantee anything.
Spanier:
Of
course not.
Flint:
I
mean, there will be days when my powers function and other days when
they just don’t and I can’t command or demand anything.
Spanier:
Of
course not.
Flint:
I
mean I’m as disappointed as you are.
Spanier:
I’m
sure.
Flint:
I
really am, very - and I know Bram will be very upset, when he knows
that we got nothing, but...and nothing would make me happier, than
for you to go away walking on air.
Spanier:
I'm
sure.
Flint:
and
say 'how very marvellous'...
Spanier:
I’m
sure.
Flint:
...but I can’t make it happen.
Spanier:
Of course not. And, I mean, it’s happened before.
Flint:
Mmm.
Spanier:
And the next time it’s been alright.
Flint:
I'll put the light on.
Spanier:
Yes.
[Lamp switched on]
Flint:
No, I think if Mickey were able...
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
You
see this is what’s happening. As I’m getting older, to be quite
frank about this, uh, it’s quite obvious that they're finding more
and more difficulty in making contact.
I, I have perhaps a marvellous sitting one day and perhaps two days later equally nice people, sincere people get nothing at all. You - one never - one can’t say, you know.
Spanier:
Well, of course not.
Flint:
One just never knows.
I seem to have lost my spectacles and I’m lost without them. But this is me you see, I...
Spanier:
I must say I, I had to leave, uh, early this morning to fetch my spectacles that I had dropped.
Flint:
Did you?
Spanier:
Yes. I drop things.
Flint:
I’m getting like that too you know. I, I suppose I [laughing] I’ll find them.
Do you do stupid things? No of course you don't.
Spanier:
Oh I spend my life doing it.
Flint:
Do you?
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
And, uh, when did you say you would come again? In September, or, or August?
Spanier:
August, I was thinking of, uh, having an actual holiday with my sister in England, and then going on to....have you got them?
Flint:
No!
I shall find them of course, but I’m so lost without them. I’ll
put another light on so we can see what we are doing.
[Click]
Ahh, I don’t know what I did with them. I obviously had them on
but, um...do you find you do silly things like that?
Spanier:
Ho! I spend my life doing it.
Flint:
I can’t imagine you...because you are so efficient.
Spanier:
Oh, uh...listen...not, uh...
Flint:
Pardon?
Spanier:
Not as much as all that. My sisters are efficient.
Flint:
[Laughing] This is crazy!
Spanier:
Do you think they could be under this cushion?
Flint:
It's crazy! No, you wouldn’t, no you wouldn’t...
Spanier:
Perhaps we must stop that...
Flint:
Anyway I've got another pair somewhere, I'll find them. Er?
Spanier:
Yesterday I left them behind. Well, I had to go and call for them this morning.
Flint:
I’ll go and get my other specs, would you excuse me a moment?
Spanier:
Yes.
Flint:
I’m so lost without...
[Curtains pulled open]
Flint:
...my
spectacles.
Spanier:
And we must stop the tape there.
[Door
opens]
[Muffled speech]
Flint to
Bram:
...not a thing...complete blank.
[Sound of
footsteps]
[Bram
enters the room]
Spanier
to Bram:
Lovely photograph.
Rogers:
No one wanted to know you?
Spanier:
No.
Rogers:
No? Ha-ha! Isn't it [shocking?]
Spanier:
No.
They cold-shouldered me!
This transcript was kindly created for the Trust by Coleen Mackenzie - May 2018