The Leslie Flint Educational Trust

Click here to edit subtitle

 
 
Frédéric Chopin séance

Recorded: November 26th 1956


Chopin talks with sitter Rose Creet
about the development of his musical talent
and of his recollections from earlier lifetimes.

Rose can be heard using the name Mamoose when she refers to Leslie Flint.
In some Aboriginal cultures this name means 'Chief.'

Part way through the recording the mechanical sound of the original
recording equipment can be heard, as the reels turn.

This does not detract from the quality of this clear communication.

 
 

PLAY                                                                     VOLUME


Read the full transcript below, as you listen...



Present: Leslie Flint, Rose Creet.
Communicators: Mickey, Frédéric Chopin.



Flint: This séance was recorded on the 26th of November 1956. Medium Leslie Flint.



Mickey:
...do you ever talk in your sleep ?


Rose:
Oh darling, I'm so pleased to hear your voice.


Mickey:
And how are you this afternoon, Rosie ?


Rose:
I'm very well, thank you.


Mickey.
Good.


Rose:
Mmm.


Mickey:
I knew you was coming today.


Rose:
Well of course you knew.

Flint:

Of course he did (Laughs.)

Rose:
How could you not know ?

Are we going to have anything exciting ? Mamoose seems to think that we're going to have a most thrilling afternoon.


Mickey:
Does he really ?


Rose:
Mmm.


Mickey:
I wonder why ?


Rose:
Was he in trance last night ?


Mickey:
Trance ?


Rose:
He says he was - woke up finding himself talking some foreign language.


Mickey:
Oh. I wouldn't know anything about that. I have enough to do with doing the day shift - let alone the night shift.


Flint and Rose:
(Laughter.)


Rose:
I'd love to know. (Laughing.)


Chopin:
I was there last night.


Rose:
You were ? Frédéric ?


Chopin:
Experimenting.


Rose:
Oh, I... I... Didn't you hear me say it ?


Chopin:
I know. I am always there trying to do something, you know. I'm always experimenting whenever I can have an opportunity, you know. And I often think the best time is when the Medium is completely unconscious and unaware, you know. And occasionally I make the attempt to see if I can make some contact in the sleep state, you know.


Rose:
Yes and I know what you were doing: practising your Polish.


Chopin:
Speaking in my own language, you know.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
I want to be able to be proficient in trying to convey my thoughts into sound via the Medium, you see.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
I think we'll have to put him right out in sittings.


Rose:
Yes, that's a very good idea, Frédéric. Are you practicing for my friend ?


Chopin:
Well, I don't know. I'm just practicing.


Rose:
For whom ?

Chopin:
Anyone. Not just one person in particular.


Rose:
Oh, I wish I knew Polish.


Chopin:
Why ?


Rose:
Why don't you practice now, if you can ? Won't you try ?


Chopin:
No, I prefer to speak in English otherwise it would be unintelligible to you. Besides, it is much more difficult and I want to do it in my own way.


Flint and Rose:
(Laughing.)


Rose:
You will always have your own way, won't you ?


Chopin:
Because my way is the right way. My way is the sensible way.


Rose:
I see. Alright, sir !


Chopin:
In any case, we shall not have any opportunity to speak to anyone in my language for some time.


Rose:
You won't ?


Chopin:
In any case, I have my own reasons.


Rose:
Why ?


Chopin:
I want to be able to be proficient. I want to be able to be master of the situation.


Rose:
Oh, yes.


Chopin:
I don't want anyone to be able to say, 'Ah, well, he didn't speak very good Polish,' or something. Besides, don't forget the Polish of 150 years ago is not the same as it is today.


Rose:
Oh, isn't it ?


Chopin:
And in consequence I have to learn to speak more modern.


Rose:
Oh. Alright, Frédéric, how do you pronounce your name ? You say it's Chopin, Chopin.


Chopin:
Show-pan.


Rose:
Eh ?


Chopin:
Show-pan.


Rose:
Chopin ?

Chopin:
Chopin.

Rose:
or Shoo-pan ?


Chopin:
No 'Shoe' : 'Show'.


Rose:
Chopin.

Chopin:
Chopin

Rose:

Oh.


Chopin:
Why do you say 'Oh' like that ?


Rose:
Well. I thought I heard you say 'Shoe-pan' or something like that. It might have been a slip.


Chopin:
No.


Rose:
Eh ?


Chopin:
Now, now, now, what is it ? What were you going to say ?


Rose:
That'll be marvellous if I brought my friend and you spoke fluent Polish because he said, 'the only thing that would make me believe, is if Chopin speaks to me in Polish.'


Chopin:
Well, we will see, we will see. I am not so concerned at the moment about your particular friend.


Rose:
No.


Chopin:
I am concerned about other things.


Rose:
Well, I'm very concerned about knowing all about ancient Egypt if you'd like to say something about it to me.


Chopin:
You are concerned about knowing about ancient Egypt.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
I should have thought there were much more important things to discuss than ancient Egypt.


Rose:
There are lots of important things but you see, the beginning when we were both in ancient Egypt. If we could just climb up a little by degrees, you see ? From ancient Egypt and the next step, forward. Don't you think ?


Chopin:
No, I don't.


Rose:
Well I - you know all about it, Frédéric, I don't you see. And ancient Egypt has always appealed to me tremendously.


Chopin:
That is not surprising. But lots of things have appealed to you at different times.


Rose:
Yes but you are in the position to enlighten me, aren't you ?


Chopin:
I feel in the mood to tease you.


Rose:
Alright then, tease today. Do whatever you like today. I'm quite ready for anything.


Chopin:
That's the trouble with you, you're always ready.


Rose:
(Laughs) Well, you are in the mood. I don't want to destroy your mood. I can cope with it, I hope.


Chopin:
I should think you could manage to cope with me.


Rose:
(Laughs.)


Chopin:
Well on the throne of Egypt there was a king. His name was Akhenaton.
He was a very wise and very fine ruler but very unpopular with the priests, with the religion of his time. He had ideas, 'New Thought,' you could call it, which did not please certain persons in high places. And they did a great deal to try to complicate his life and his attitude to the people. The people were fond of Akhenaton but the priests were losing ground, were losing power, because of the new ideas, religious ideas of the king. You know, for a long time, you and I, we were, how you say, seekers. We were desirous of finding out truth.


We were brought up in a religious circle. I was brought up in a religious house. You also, from very early childhood, were given to the Church to be what you would call a hand-maiden of the Church at the time. But we saw the inner workings of the priests who did not approve but it was not possible to do anything about it. Fundamentally we had great faith but our faith was shaken by individuals in the priesthood and we became interested, you know, in the teaching, the new thought of Akhenaton. But eventually we became suspect by the priests and we have to make an escape to save our lives. I have told you some of this before.


Rose:
Yes. What, you and I escaped ?


Chopin:
We escape...for a time, but we were caught.


Rose:
Oh. And then what happened, Frédéric ?


Chopin:
Oh, we were put to death.


Rose:
Put to death !


Chopin:
Secretly. It would not have done for the priests to come out into the open that they were putting people to death because of their religious belief, which would not have been popular with the people; especially the people who were in the Church itself. But... oh well, we were not allowed to live. That was our first contact, as far as my memory serves me.


Rose:
And then what happened after death ?


Chopin:
Oh after death we were here for a little while together, but only for a short time. Then we return in Rome, in ancient Rome at the time of Caesar.


Rose:
Oh yes.


Chopin:
We were Christians. We were always seeking, as I've told you before, for truth. But there again our religious beliefs were not popular. Our seeking for truth lead us into many difficulties. And we were brother and sister.


Rose:
Brother and sister ? Oh.


Chopin:
And so eventually we have to escape from Rome at the time the Christians were being persecuted. And we live and settle in what today I think you call Southern Italy and we live peacefully and quietly in a small village. Our parents had died many years previously. Neither of us married, which is not surprising, for although we did not realise it (we were brother and sister of course) there was something that prevented us within our own make up from desiring to seek elsewhere for happiness. We were content to be left in peace. I was - I know you laugh at this - I was a carpenter. A very good one.


Rose:
A carpenter ?


Chopin:
A very good carpenter.


Rose:
Oh yes.


Chopin:
You know, even in my last incarnation, although I was a musician, I was clever with my fingers in other directions. I could create: make things. I used to amuse myself with making things in my last incarnation out of wood. This is something which probably has never appeared in any books about me, but...


Rose:
No.


Chopin:
I used to like to sculpt, as what you say, to make, to create things, you know.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
But that is another thing.


Rose:
Yes, but carry on, Frédéric. You were...


Chopin:
You were very artistic too. You were able to sew beautifully and embroider. This is how we made our living in this Roman incarnation. I would do my work as a carpenter making various things and you with the sewing and needlework, because you were very clever. But, you know, between us there was a great happiness. I lived to be a very old man. You pass over when you were in your forties and I live many years after you.


Rose:
And what did I do in the meantime after I died ?


Chopin:
After you died, ah, you were here with me.


Rose:
Where ?


Chopin:
Over here.


Rose:
Over there ?


Chopin:
Neither of us had become musicians. You are still in the process of becoming one, of course. But I had not done anything with regard to music, except in Egypt I had a certain amount of musical education, but one must remember that there were few instruments. Mostly they were what you would call a kind of lyre.

Rose:
Yes.

Chopin:
...which I was fairly proficient on. That was my first instinct for music. Yet strangely enough in my second incarnation I have no recollection of music at all - of creating or playing an instrument. But, it was in my third incarnation that I begin to commence my artistic musical career.


Rose:
That was in...


Chopin:
That was in the time of the Borgia family...


Rose:
Oh yes.


Chopin:
...which you've probably read and heard so much about.


Rose:
Fourteen hundred and something...


Chopin:
It was in that period that art was flourishing. It was appreciated probably at that period more than it has been appreciated before or since. Musical instruments were becoming more, shall we say, understood. They were being created and people were coming forward who had some experience and knowledge and were able to play and to compose. In that particular period, of course, music had advanced to a certain extent in comparison to the earlier times and I had many abilities in as much that I could paint and I could play and compose. Some of my compositions of that early period I presume, might still be in being: that is, there may still be traces of my music left.


Rose:
That was the time when you were... what was your name then ? Er... oh dear... What was your name then, Frédéric ?


Chopin:
My name... I had many names. Like all Italian children I was given many, many names.


Rose:
No, but the time you were composing in the time of the Borgia.


Chopin:
Giuseppe.


Rose:
What ?


Chopin:
Giuseppe.


Rose:
Giuseppe. Oh.


Chopin:
(Unintelligible) and this is where we become linked with [Rudolph] Valentino and his family.


Rose:
Oh, yes.


Chopin:
Because his family were related to our family.


Rose:
Oh yes, and Mamoose comes in there ?


Chopin:
He comes into the picture there for the first time.


Rose:
Oh. They were brothers - they were two brothers, weren't they ?


Chopin:
They were brothers, centuries ago in that particular period. The Guglielmini family. The Guglielmini family.


Rose:
Eh ?


Chopin:
I try to pronounce for you the family's name. The Guglielmini family.


Rose:
Gugliel...


Chopin:
Guglielmini family.


Rose:
Guglielmini family. Yes.


Chopin:
There were links forged there in that period which were repeated through various incarnations afterwards. You know, you were betrothed, how you say, betrothed ?


Rose:
Betrothed, yes.


Chopin:
...when you were quite a small child and I remember our marriage ceremony or service - I remember so much about our lives in that period; probably more so in that period than perhaps any other. For it is probably because partly, that we were husband and wife for the first time and also because my music and your interest in music was first born, at least it first was apparent, you know.


Rose:
Oh. Oh.


Chopin:
If ever you go to Italy, which you probably will do one day, you go to Rome...you'll see some traces of my work.


Rose:
Of your work ?


Chopin:
Some.


Rose:
Mmm.

Don't stop, Frédéric.


Chopin:
There is a very old family called the Bellini family.


Rose:
Vallini ?


Chopin:
No, no: Bellini.


Rose:
Oh, Bellini.


Chopin:
...which was our house. There are still people of that family today and there is still work of the Bellini brothers, for we were a large family and I and my brother were both artistic. My brother was particularly so. He was a very clever artist and do many fine works and I also paint but not so well, I don't think or believe. But my interest in music was advanced at that time in that incarnation and I composed various music for special celebrations and Church services. Also for - also for, what you call, I suppose...(unintelligible) to a dance, as you say: Pavanes, things of that nature.


Rose:
Did we have any children Frédéric ?


Chopin:
No.


Rose:
No ?


Chopin:
No. No children. You always seem to have a habit of dying young - for only one reason why this time you're dying old.


Rose:
I see.


Rose and Flint:
(Laughter.)


Rose:
And what of Valentino ? What - does he come into the picture again ?


Chopin:
He comes into the picture several times. He is, of course, a very old soul. He is a very great psychic. He was always interested in the occult. In that particular period it was dangerous to dabble in the occult - that is if the Church were aware of it. The Church was always very powerful. I was interested in the occult too and so were you. But we had not a great deal of knowledge in those days but we have had some experience. We have great belief in life after death and communication, but our opportunity to delve into the subject was not tremendous; it was not very great.

But Valentino he was an extraordinary character. He was always very exciting and we sometimes, when he was with us or we were with him, when we travelled, we go to Naples. We stay for a little time in that place and we would learn a great deal about psychic things from him. But we were all rather afraid of it. For in those days black magic was very much rife and it was considered very unwise to have anything to do with anything of that nature. Besides it was more than that - it was dangerous. There were many witches, though we realise now that they were not necessarily evil people at all. But in those days one was very superstitious.


Rose:
Yes. Was Mamoose there as well ?


Chopin:
He was there too. He was a brother of Valentino in those days. The Valentina family is a very old family. There was two groups - it's very difficult to explain. In Italy in those days there were houses, there were families which were very powerful. And there was great feuds between families, between various sects and peoples and the country was ruled in sections by nobles.

And there was great antagonism between certain families and there was a great deal of unpleasant incidents in which I was not involved, but he was. He was killed in a duel with another family. Very much like the Romeo and Juliet, the Capulet and so on.


Rose:
Oh I see.

Chopin:
But that was common in those days.

Rose:
Yes.

Chopin:
Families ruled large areas of the land. You know, it was not until 1700 that I really developed my music, in any shape or sense, in the way that I realised music should be developed. It was in that period that I do a great deal of work and compose, but I never became what you term famous. But I compose a great number of works, which possibly some are still played today, but mostly for the Church.

I know you don't like Church music but in those days most music was composed for the Church. One received support from the Church.
It was very essential in those days to live also. I'm now talking about a later incarnation.


And in Italy and in Spain and in certain other countries on the continent music was very much appreciated and very much supported by the Church and many people who were musically inclined were given great help by the Church. The Church in some respects was, you might say, the supporters of music. They - we owe a great deal to the Church from the point of view of the development of music.

Rose:
Yes.

Chopin:
Some of the monks, for instance, were very psychic and had a great deal of inspiration. They were not, perhaps what you would call Mediums, in the same sense as you understand them today. But in their meditation and prayer and in their kind of life which they live and lead they have much given to them of a mental nature. I think the majority of those who were in monasteries and attached to the Church - where they have much time to meditate and give over to prayer and thought - they were very much more sensitised to things of the spirit in consequence and received great inspiration. And some of the monks were very musical and they gave a great deal to music and helped with its development.

Rose:
Yes.

Chopin:
But it was not until my last incarnation that I really became a fully fledged musician and I think all the previous experiences and knowledge that I had assessed and amassed, you know, over centuries of time and...So much came out in that incarnation, that I think it is in my last incarnation that I really achieved what I had set out to do, what I set out to learn, what I had developed within myself as a person and as a character. All my past life, to some extent, can be traced in my music. That's why when I was very, very young I used to surprise people by what I could do with the piano, what I could bring out of the piano.

Rose:
Yes.

Chopin:
But like you know, my lessons were very sketchy when I was young.


Rose:
Yes I know.


Chopin:
I had very little musical training of any consequence, you know, until I was about twelve.


Rose:
I know that Frédéric. Elsner couldn't have known that Żywny, you remember Żywny ?


Chopin:
Yes I do...


Rose:
Your first teacher ? He couldn't teach you anymore when you were - he'd started you when you were about six or seven...


Chopin:
I know...


Rose:
...and he couldn't do anything more with you, he said.


Chopin:
No.


Rose:
And then you started to compose very early. You composed - started at the age of eight. I've got some of those compositions.


Chopin:
I started - it was a natural instinct with me.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
You know, it’s an extraordinary thing that I had hardly any teaching, any lessons, in regard to playing the piano.


Rose:
Mmm. No, I know.


Chopin:
It all by instinct. It came natural to me.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
When I was very young I would sit at the piano and just strum, as you say, my fingers over the keys. Anyhow, it came automatically.


Rose:
Yes. Oh, interesting. Do go on, Frédéric, if you can.


Chopin:
You know there's a little thing I composed: C minor.


Rose:
C minor ? What was it ?


Chopin:
I don't think you have ever heard it. I could not have been more than seven of eight when I started playing it.


Rose:
I wish you could hum it.

Chopin:
I don't know if I can hum it. But later on, many years later, I use that simple little tune, theme, in a later work.


Rose:
Oh ?


Chopin:
It is only three notes.


Rose:
Mmm. Improvised on three notes did you ?


Chopin:
On three notes.


Rose:
What was that, Frédéric ?

Tell me...
(Silence)


Flint:
He's teasing you.


Rose:
Mmm.


Flint:
Trying to make you find out for yourself.


Rose:
I know. (Laughs.)
I'm thinking hard.
(Silence)


Chopin:
(Very quietly) Dum, dum, dee, dum, dee.....


Rose:
What ?


Flint:
He's humming something, isn't he ?

Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
[Continues to hum quietly]


Rose:
I can't hear you.


Flint:
I can't either, it's so faint.


Rose:
Dum, da, da, da, da, da, da, da ?


Chopin:
Three notes.


Rose:
That's the thing that's come out in your um...third movement of your...um...Sonata ? *SEE NOTE 1 BELOW

Chopin:
You remember. You have found it.


Rose:
Eh ?


Chopin:
I wondered how long it would take you.


Rose:
(Laughs.) I had thought of it but I wasn't quite sure.


Chopin:
You see ? The basic.


Rose:
Eh ?


Chopin:
You take it right down to basic, you see.


Rose:
Yes. That is it ?


Chopin:
I improvise on it and improvise, you know.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
I remember once a very amusing thing happened when I was composing something. It was a very old piano. I was away from my own home. It was somewhere where the piano had been standing and had got damp and the notes, certain notes would stick, you know.

Rose:
Yes.

Chopin:
And no matter, I'd think, 'Ah, never mind. This is a test or something', you know. I'd say to myself, 'Ah - but I'll see what I can do with the notes that don't stick,' and I composed something from that, you see.


Rose:
Yes. What was that ?


Chopin:
A piece of my music where it seems as if there's something lacking, something missing - as if it's pretty obvious that something is wrong and yet it is not wrong. It is right. It is musically right. But anyone who is very clever would say to himself,
'Mmm. Now what is this man doing here. There is something unusual. Why does this miss ?'

It's almost as if there are some notes missing. In fact in certain copies of my music, even in my lifetime, they would put in certain notes that I had intended to be left out.


Rose:
Oh.


Chopin:
It's a Prelude.


Rose:
A Prelude ?


Chopin:
Mmm. (Silence)

Never mind.


Rose:
Oh no, no, I must get it.


Chopin:
You have got it.


Rose:
I have ?
The first one ?


Chopin:
It is most strange, at least so some people think. But I composed that on a very old piano where a lot of the notes would not play and where the pedals were not working properly. It was, sort of, a kind of test for me and I found great amusement out of it. It is an amusing piece of composition.


Rose:
Mmm. If it's amusing it must be one of your Scherzos.


Chopin:
No, no. It is amusing to a musician.


Rose:
Oh. Well, I'm not a musician, unfortunately. Your first Prelude is very peculiar.


Chopin:
I'm talking about a peculiar Prelude.


Rose:
Yes. The first one ?


Chopin:
B, B, B, B. ** [SEE NOTE 2 BELOW]

Rose:
Mmm.


Flint:
He said something about B.


Rose:
Yes.


Flint:
Is that in B, whatever it is ?


Rose:
Are you giving me a lesson or trying to find out...testing me ?


Chopin:
No, no. I'm not trying to test you. Why should I try to test you ? Where my music is concerned you could pass a lot of tests.


Rose:
(Laughs.)


Chopin:
Not for playing, but for knowing about it. You have several copies of my Preludes.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
I mean...a repeat.


Rose:
Yes, I did have but I've given...


Chopin:
Ah, well I was just wondering if in this particular Prelude we are talking about...if various suppliers of the music also make these alterations.


Rose:
But all your music is altered, Frédéric.


Chopin:
Well, there should not be...


Rose:
A good many of them is altered and the pedalling is completely in the wrong place, I think.


Chopin:
You think. That is most likely, but the original...


Rose:
Yes.

Chopin:
...the original, published in my lifetime, are the correct...although even so there are mistakes in some, of course.

Rose:
Those German publishers were the best for you: 'Hottoff' or something. *** [SEE NOTE 3 BELOW]


Chopin:
They do good copies.


Rose:
Yes. But those are impossible to get now.


Chopin:
Not impossible for you. Nothing is impossible for you where I am concerned.


Rose:
No, because you're with me. You make me get them. Shall I try and get them.


Chopin:
You will get them.


Rose:
I will ?


Chopin:
Don't worry, you will get more things than you realise in connection with myself. In the next ten years...


Rose:
Oh God...


Chopin:
Don't say 'Oh God' like that. In the next ten years you have many surprises and interesting experiences with regard to myself and my music and our lives together. But I am not ready yet and I don't want to be bothered with other people.


Rose:
What do you mean, you don't want to be bothered with other people ?


Chopin:
I want to do my own work in my own way. And I want to provide you with experiences, tests and I want to do various things.


Rose:
I see.


Chopin:
And I cannot do that if I have got to concentrate on other people. Later on, when the time is ready and I am in a position to turn to you and say, 'Well, look we have done this, we have achieved this together, we now are in a position to help to convince certain people who can be of service or use.'
But it is no good at the moment trying to please or to convince people who, in any case, either are not ready for this or may not be in any position to talk or help in any way. I think we must be patient, as I've told you. I know you've got ideas and plans. I plant them in your head, true, but at the same time there has got to be a proper time for these things.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
You go back to Majorca again.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
To build a bridge - this is, how you say, metaphorical.


Rose:
Yes
.


Chopin:
You build a bridge to make possible certain things we shall do. There are certain people that you are going to meet, as I've told you in the past. Certain friendships to be forged and strengthened.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
The professor is one. He is going to be very important in your life.


Rose:
In what way, Frédéric ? He's going to give me lessons, I know, you said...


Chopin:
He's going to teach you. He is going to help you with your music, of course. That is a little pleasure that I want you to have and the friendship of the fellow. But also, I want to work with him and use him a little more, himself, you know.


Rose:
Yes, yes, yes...


Chopin:
There are certain people you see, one must realise this, that there are Mediums in various directions. There are Mediums I can use, like this one to speak to you and I hope in other directions to use him. But there are also musicians, who I can use from a musical point of view, who I can use as instruments for their own good, of course. And also for you, to demonstrate to you, to prove to you - not that you need the proof so much - but I've got so many plans.

Rose:
Yes.

Chopin:
You must remember that these things must be done in stages. They may take a number of years. I say ten years. I make it ten years. That is what I say. Maybe a little less, maybe more, but in ten years, which I think you have to do - stay on Earth we can do a great deal. And I want to leave behind a record through you, for the work, for those who are intelligent enough and understanding enough. But I shall hope to achieve certain things which in themselves will be so strikingly evidential that no-one, unless they are very, very difficult to believe - to convince, must believe, you know.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
I know what I'm doing, but don't put me to too much difficulty until I am ready.


Rose:
No I won't.


Chopin:
When I'm ready I'll tell you I'm ready.


Rose:
Alright, Frédéric, alright. I'm glad you've mentioned it and I won't.


Chopin:
That's why when you ask me so many questions, I'm sometimes quite shy, how you say, of answering, because I don't want you to run too quickly, when I know the best way to achieve all these things is by the gradual process. We have time. We have plenty of time. You have many years yet, ten years at least to do a great deal.
Maybe in six months, maybe in a year, maybe less or more, I shall achieve certain things which I have set out to do. But that is only the beginning, because not only one person, but many persons are involved in this, you see. Not only you, not only the Medium, not only the circle, as you call it, that sit here, but people like the professor, people like Malcuzynski, people like George Sand, all sorts of internationally world famous people.


Musical people are going to be brought into this, but to do that I have got to be proficient, how you say, at communication. I've got to be proficient in other directions, so that I can demonstrate in such a way that a person like Malcuzynski, for instance, can never turn round and say, 'That could not be Chopin.' I must be in a position to give him 100% conviction.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
You understand ?


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
It would be hopeless to prove something like this to a man who is yet unready. And he will be more ready perhaps in five years or less or more time, than he could possibly be now. The same as the professor; we have to break down barriers, we have to break down religious prejudices. We have many things, even with your little friend who plays so nicely. She is involved in this.


Rose:
She is too ?


Chopin:
Today she is an ardent Catholic.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
Tomorrow who knows ?


Rose:
Mmm.


Chopin:
You will see, you will see.


Rose:
What is going to happen to her in life, Frédéric ?


Chopin:
In what way do you mean ?


Rose:
I mean, she seems...Is she going to have any future or...?


Chopin:
Everyone has a future because there is life after death.


Rose:
Yes, I know.


Chopin:
And everyone has got a past - ooh hoo !


Rose:
Yes. I mean while she's on the Earth or is she going to carry on as she's carrying on now ?


Chopin:
I don't see any changes in her personal life.


Rose:
You don't.


Chopin:
And I certainly do not think that one can hope to expect it.


Rose:
No.


Chopin:
She has achieved all that she can hope to achieve, unfortunately.


Rose:
Has she ? Mmm.


Chopin:
But one must remember, that one can be useful. One can be of great help in smaller ways and she has been a great help to many people. She has been very kind and considerate. She has neglected her own health to help other people. There is much in her nature and character that I admire. And one must also bear in mind that although one may not agree with her religion, her religion has been a great help to her and has helped to bring out a lot of good in her character. So we must never be prejudiced.


What I am prejudiced against and what so many people are prejudiced against is the narrow-mindedness of the teaching of the Church, which sometimes prevent a person from becoming a much better person. I don't only mean in character, but better person also in regard to their art also; in regard to the fullness that they could have in their lives. 


Anyway, I don't want to go into that, but I just want you to know that I have my plans and every one of my plans is a good plan and it is not only something that I have devised myself. A great deal of consultation and help has been given to me by others here. Some you know. Some you don't know. We have many things that we want to achieve, but only these things can be achieved if we are patient, one with the other; that we work in complete harmony and co-operation and that we do not attempt to do too much, too quickly. You will see, as I have told you. Gradual process with me, development. Gradual, very gradual, but it will be there and when the time comes for me to do things where other people are concerned, I will do it. Already the seeds have been sown in Majorca.


Rose:
Have they ?


Chopin:
And when you return you will see the result to some extent of the seed that is sown. Questions will be asked. You'll become more intimate: more friendly. You'll meet new friends, new faces. Links will be forged. This next visit is much more important than the first. The first was important; the second is vital.

Rose:
Oh.


Chopin:
Anyway I can tell you no more today.


Rose:
Alright, Frédéric. Well, we're thinking of going in the middle of May. Will that be alright ?


Chopin:
That should be alright.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
You go in the middle of...well, whenever it is you can.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
Don't make it too late in the summer. Don't go in the height of the summer. Go when the island is peaceful.


Rose:
Yes.


Chopin:
When the professor has more time.


Rose:
Oh yes.

Chopin:
You will see. You will see. Let him know that you are going.


Rose:
Yes. I will.


Chopin:
I talk to you again if I can on Wednesday.


Rose:
Oh yes please. Thank you very...


Chopin:
But... you will see. You will see. I must go.


Rose:
Thank you very much for all that you've told me.


Chopin:
...and don't puzzle your head too much. Be content.


Rose:
(Laughs.) Alright.


Mickey:
Bye bye Rosie.


Rose:
Bye bye.


Mickey:
Bye bye.


Rose:
Bye bye, darling.



RECORDING ENDS


* NOTE 1:
This is likely be a reference to the Third Movement of Chopin's Piano Sonata No. 2 in B flat Minor Op.35. This is the famous Funeral March the main theme of which is based on a melodic phrasing pattern which only uses three notes. A preliminary sketch of this March, in the key of C minor, was composed in 1827 when Chopin was 17. This initial sketch was never published in his lifetime but was eventually published posthumously in 1855 as his Op.72 No.2. In 1837 Chopin reworked this sketch into the more famous Funeral March but did not publish it at the time, incorporating it eventually into his Sonata No. 2, the other 3 movements of which he completed in the summer of 1839, with the work being published in 1840. It is possible for those with a keen ear to just about be able to discern the rhythm of the Funeral March from Chopin's humming above.


*NOTE 2:
Of Chopin's Preludes Op 28, the only ones that are in the key of B are No. 6 - Lento Assai - in B minor, No.11 - Vivace - in B major, No.16 - Presto Con Fuoco - in B flat minor and No. 21 - Cantabile - in B flat major. The majority of the Preludes were written prior to Chopin's departure to Majorca in relatively comfortable conditions in France. Initial versions of Nos 2, 4, 10 and 21 were written following his move to Majorca with George Sand and her children. On arriving at the island Sand was unable to obtain lodgings for them in spite of a number of letters of introduction. After a short while living in squalid noisy rooms she was able to find them a small, primitively furnished rented villa a few miles from Palma. Frustrated at the delays with shipping his much loved Pleyel piano to the island, Chopin rented a piano locally and set to work on finishing the preludes and a few other compositions. The pane-less windows, thin walls and chimney-less braziers of their rented villa meant that during the frequent torrential periods of rain the villa would become a 'cold, damp and smoky hole'. Maybe No.21 is the most likely candidate, but who knows? Although Chopin wrote a few other later Preludes after Op 28 none were related to the key of B and all were composed at a time when his living conditions were more comfortable.


*NOTE 3:
Rose is probably referring to Chopin's second music publisher in Germany, Breitkopf & Härtel.

This transcript and related notes were created by a good friend of the Leslie Flint Educational Trust, Mr Simon Lovelock.

With grateful thanks to Joëlle Cerfoglia.