The Leslie Flint Educational Trust

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Frédéric Chopin séance

Recorded: May 7th 1956

In this recording Frédéric talks about those who write about him,
and Rose Creet tells him about a book by Wodziński.


Chopin mentions that he lives alone in the Afterlife,
but is mentally linked with many people.

Later he discusses the limitations of the piano,
but explains how we can create without limit in the spiritual realms…

First we hear Chopin's Nocturne Op.37 No.2 in G Major playing on
a tape recorder
, then Mickey speaks, followed by Frédéric…
 
 

PLAY                                                                     VOLUME


Read the full transcript below, as you listen...

Present: Leslie Flint, Rose Creet.
Communicator: Mickey, Frédéric Chopin.


Gwen Vaughan:
This tape recording is not a complete full length recording of the original séance. Part of the séance was personal
to Mrs. Creet and only the general and interesting remarks made by Frédéric Chopin have been re-recorded for replay to the public.


Flint:
This séance was recorded on May 7th 1956. Private appointment for Rose Creet. Medium Leslie Flint.


Flint:
I must definitely do something to that light. I've not noticed it before, have you?

Creet:
What's that?

Flint:
I've never noticed that before.

Creet:
Oh, it's always been like that.

Flint:
Yes - definitely the chimney.

Creet:
Well, I hope they'll be able to manifest.

Flint:
I expect so.

Mickey:
It'll take more than that to stop me.


Creet:
Mmm. I expect it would, darling. Good old Mickey 'the warrior'.


[The music is stopped]

Mickey:
Pardon?


Creet:
[Laughs]


Mickey:
The warrior?


Creet:
Nothing stops a warrior.


Mickey:
Well, I wouldn't say I was a warrior.


Creet:
A warrior of a kind.


Mickey:
If I'm a warrior, you're a worrier.


Creet and Flint:
[Laughing]


Flint:
[Coughing]


Creet:
Mickey?


Mickey:
Yes.


Creet:
What about Rudolph Valentino showing himself last night to Mamoose?


Mickey:
Yes, well that's just to show you what can be done.


Creet:
I know.


Mickey:
You see, last night in the...in the...in the, well, cinema, so as you call it, it was dark and con-du-cive to phenomenon because of the attention that was being paid on the film and interest in him. And being an anniversary I suppose it was all sort of conducive.


Creet:
Mmm.


Flint:
I wish I could have seen him more distinctly Mickey. In other words, if he'd stayed a bit longer.


Mickey:
Well, it's only just to give you an idea. In any case, there's more behind all these things than meets the eye.


Creet:
Is he anywhere around today?


Mickey:
No.


Creet:
He isn't?


Mickey:
No.


Creet:
Is he here on Wednesdays then?


Mickey:
Sometimes.


Creet:
Why is it that he doesn't come and speak to us? To Mamoose, then anyway?


Mickey:
There is a reason. But you must always know the reasons, mustn't you?


Flint:
[Laughing]


Creet:
I like to know the reason, darling, because it teaches us to know the reason of things, you know.


Mickey:
Yes, but there is a very good reason. He will come when he feels inclined.


Creet:
When he feels inclined...or when he thinks he should come?


Mickey:
When there's something very vital or important to talk about or say. But you must be patient, Rosie.


Creet:
It's not for me darling it's...


Mickey:
I know it's not for you but there's a reason and I can't tell you everything.


Creet:
Well, I can only ask and if you can't tell me just say, “No. I'm sorry I can't tell you that.”


Mickey and Creet:
[Laughing]


Creet:
It's only by asking that you can learn things...


Mickey:
'Ask and thou shalt receive'.


Creet:
Yes! What about it?[Laughing] Come on! [Laughing]


Chopin:
There are a lot of things that we can tell you...


Creet:
Oh! Frédéric!


Chopin:
But it is very true. If you were to know everything it would not be good. There are certain things that we prefer not to tell you. We like to keep you guessing sometimes, you know.


Creet:
But why Frédéric?


Chopin:
Well, there are very good reasons which at the time, perhaps, you don't realise why, but become apparent after a time, you know. The same as it is not always good for you to know in advance certain things.


It destroy the element of surprise and also it is not always possible for us to be sure as to whether we can do certain things that we have set our heart or mind on and we don't like to promise and then disappoint you, you know.


Creet:
That's your Earthly element coming out. When you were on the Earth you were full of surprises for everybody.


Chopin:
Well, of course, my music is full of surprises...


Creet:
Yes I know.


Chopin:
and my personality...I often remember, you know, when certain things I had to compose. People have idea when they first play, you know, when the first few bars have begun...


Creet:
Yes!


Chopin...
...and then all of a sudden something come out of the blue: different, absolutely different, taking them quite by surprise. They say, “Ah! Who'd have thought this? You know, it's the form is...everything is different, you know.”


I like...often I play something very sweet and very nice, you know, get them all worked up into a mood and then all of a sudden 'whoof!'

Creet:
Fireworks!


Chopin:
Yes.


Creet:
[Laughing]


Chopin:
[Unintelligible]... do something extraordinary.


Creet:
[Unintelligible]


Chopin:
I never try to do the obvious. I leave that to the other composers.


Flint and Creet:
[Laughing]


Creet:
Oh, but he's quite right, you know. He's quite right.


Chopin:
I composed quite a number of pieces at different times, you know, that were not up to my...what I say, my standard. I think, “Ah, no, leave that thing. No. I destroy it, I don't like it. I must do that again.”

You know, I work, work and then I think, “No, the original idea was no good, discard it,” you know, and then perhaps a long time later I think, “I remember, I think that thing I think of where I do...” You know...I try again and I build it differently.


Creet:
Ah yes, yes, I have read...I read about all that.


Chopin:
I know. Well, the things you read about me, ah?


Creet:
Yes.


Chopin:
Well, some of the things: they are so wrong.


Creet:
Some of them, I suppose, are.


Chopin:
Yes, some things are right but I get great pleasure, you know, out of argument sometimes I have had with people who have pretend to write my life, you know. I think to myself, “Ah, you wait 'till you come over here, you rascal,” you know and I castigation...castigate them, you know.


Creet:
Oh do you?


Chopin:
Well, I have.


Creet:
Well who? Who have you castigated?


Chopin:
But I learn with years, how you say...?


Creet:
Who?


Chopin:
I learn to be a little more discrete. But at times I find it difficult to hold my tongue.


Creet:
You know the book I'm dying to get hold of and I can't because it's not translated? The one by Count Wodziński.


Chopin:
Why can you not get it?


Creet:
Eh?


Chopin:
Why can you not get it?


Creet:
Well, it's written in Polish.


Chopin:
Well you can get it translated.


Creet:
Mmm, I don't know.


Chopin:
Oh, you don't think...?


Creet:
Eh?


Chopin:
I don't know. You've got quite enough books. After all I can tell you much more than the books.


Creet:
Oh, can you? I don't believe it.


Chopin:
You...now, I know you! You are trying to make me say some things.


Creet:
[Laughing]


Chopin:
You think to yourself, “Ah, I put him on his mettle. He say certain things, you know. Tell me things.” I am not a fool. Don't forget I have met you before.


Creet:
Oh. What's that?


Chopin:
Don't forget I have met you before and you have not altered all that much. In some respects you are very much alike, you know.


Creet:
Am I?


Chopin:
Oh! Women. You know, I don't think women change very much from one generation to another. I think men do, but not women.


Creet:
Why's that?


Chopin:
I don't know. I think it is that they have too much of the...well...


Creet:
Women are supposed to be the changeable ones, you know?


Chopin:
Ah, changeable in certain respects but fundamentally they are very much the same today as they were 2000 years ago or longer.


Creet:
[Laughing] This...Wodziński's one is...Les Trois Romans:” your three romances.


Chopin:
What about them?


Creet:
Mmm? That's the book I want to get hold of.


Chopin:
Ah! Three romances! I had more than three.


Creet:
You had more...but those three were your chief ones.


Chopin:
That's what the public think.


Creet:
So tell me all the others, Frédéric.

Chopin:

No, I've no intention to go over my dirty past.


Creet and Flint:
[Laughing]


Creet:
Do you see them over there now?


Chopin:
Sometimes.


Creet:
You do?


Chopin:
But I am not living with any one person.


Creet:
You're not?


Chopin:
No.


Creet:
You're living by yourself.


Chopin:
No. What I mean is I am not with any woman.


Creet:
Oh I see. You can't be with any woman, can you now.


Chopin:
You mean no woman can be with me.


Creet and Flint:
(Laughing)


Creet:
Have you tried, Frédéric?


Chopin:
No, I don't intend to try.


Creet:
You don't intend to try? But you...


Chopin:
No. I am very happy to be free.


Creet:
To be free?


Chopin:
But don't misunderstand me. It is that I make the joke of everything, but what I try to convey is here, thank God, there is no giving and taking in marriage.


Creet:
No. Isn't that marvellous?


Chopin:
We are all - at least, when I say 'all' - all we who are in one plane or environment, in harmony...but there is no physical or material aspect of marriage. Here it is a marriage of mind and of spirit. It is something so totally different. I can't explain in words. But I am so free and yet I am, in a sense, linked with many, you know.


Creet:
You are?


Chopin:
And there is no pettiness, no bitterness, no jealousy; only love, understanding and tolerance.


Creet:
Isn't that wonderful, Frédéric?


Chopin:
And a musician like myself can work in peace.


Creet:
You can?


Chopin:
Oui. Work in peace.


Creet:
Eh?


Chopin:
Work in peace. I am not distracted; although often from my distraction on the Earth came my best music, but that is another story. There is a vast difference between music that is composed on Earth - wonderful though it may be - to that which is composed over here.


Here we can see the reflection, as it were, like looking in the mirror of humanity and we can compose or create or recreate exactly what we see and what we feel without having to touch, in a sense, the original, if you follow? Like when you look in the mirror, you see reflected everything in a room perfectly...


Creet:
Yes.


Chopin:
...but you don't have to be part of what you see in the mirror.


Creet:
Oh I see.


Chopin:
We see the world like a mirror and all the people, everything, is clear to us, but we are apart from it. We are the other side of the mirror, seeing it all and yet not being contaminate or affected by it. For instance, when I come here to talk to you or to manifest - as I hope to do in other ways soon - my coming back is in no way affecting me as a person or my work or my interests. It is something which is important but it is in no way bad or can no way affect me.


The infinitesimal time that I spend on Earth with you here is so small in time itself, that it is of no consequence, except in that I like to come. I like to be of service and to try to help and it is good; because you can help through my coming, and others too, to help and influence your world.


It's difficult to explain exactly, but if you can realise that we can be part of your world without being in it and without being affected by it, you have some vague idea. But we can affect your world, whereas your world cannot really affect ours. The only effect that your world can have is on the lower spheres which are nearer the Earth and in consequence are almost part of it. In fact, they merge together, you might say.


Creet:
Yes. I see.


Chopin:
I was a little disappointed you could not come and speak to me at the weekend, but I understand why.


Creet:
Oh, the weekend?


Chopin:
Oui.


Creet:
Well, I don't...I think, uh...well Mamoose has to have a Saturday off you know, Frédéric. He works...


Chopin:
By the way my music did not fit that film.


Flint:
What?


Creet:
My music...your music?


Chopin:
Oh, they used a piece of my music for some part of this film show and I thought to myself, “Ah, the man has no idea.”


Flint:
Hah !


Creet:
Did he?


Flint:
Oh dear!


Creet:
[Laughter]


Flint:
I think he used a recording of...um...


Creet:
[Laughter] Oh poor Chopin!


Chopin:
Oh I don't mind, but um...I was amused.


Creet:
But Frederik, he saw...he saw, er, Valentino.


Chopin:
I know I was here too last night. I thought perhaps you might have been here, but er, you were upstairs.


Creet:
Yes.


Chopin:
I come, occasionally, into this flat...


Creet:
Yes.


Chopin:
Sometimes I come here to see if you are here, if you are not here I go upstairs.


Creet:
You're quite strong I expect you're very...


Chopin:
No, I like to make you smile. I like to see your face light up and see your eyes sparkle and I like to see you happy, because I know that in your world, happiness is a very rare thing. My own experiences, which have been so many in the past years in my life...


Creet:
Hmm.


Chopin:
...I realise that happiness is something that is so fleeting, that to hold on to it as long as you can is very precious.


Creet:
You don't get fits of depression or anything like that like you used to?


Chopin:
No. All that has passed.


Creet:
It's finished?


Chopin:
But remember...


Creet:
Yes?


Chopin:
...that any artist, and even, shall we say, a poor artist, could not be an artist without the effect of the unhappiness of your world. You know it's an extraordinary thing, we on this side are always praying, we are always hoping for the happiness of mankind and it is true that we are all working for it.


But in spite of it, sometimes I wonder if, out of the perfect happiness that we hope will exist in your world, there will come the great works. Of course, I suppose I am approaching it from a strange angle, but um, I only think of myself and I think of only other people I know - and their greatest works were composed often in their unhappiest and saddest moments.


Creet:
Yes.


Chopin:
There again there is a sweetness sometimes about sadness, which is even as important as infinite joy. But over here, I suppose it is that we can sense or we can be conscious of all the many conflicting moods and conditions of mankind, that we can react accordingly and compose or do whatever we have to do, in an artistic sense and put it into our work and yet not be affected by it - that is, not have to bear it. I think it is, that one must look upon the Earth as a life of experience, no matter what it may hold or bring or no matter what it may have for us, it is nevertheless important.


I know that you are constantly saying to yourself, “ah, this is a wasted existence” and I know exactly how feel, how you think and how, in your sad moments and sorrowful moments, that you feel that you have been so cheated and your life has been wasted, but I don't see it like that. I know from an artistic point of view, from a musical point of view, that is so, but I don't see your life as you see it.


I know it is difficult for you; you are still existing in the world, you are still living your life, it is still playing out its part in the world...but the point is, that I realise that it has been necessary, to an extent of which you have no knowledge. Because when you come here, you will come here fully experienced and be able to see clearly, much of the reason which made your life as it is. You had to gain experience, you had to be completely finished with the world.


You see, it is essential for a person to come here and know that their Earthly existence is finished for good; there is no need, there is no purpose in going back to it, to go through many things again and again.

It is true that some people return many times, as indeed you have and I have and other souls have. But there comes a point when you...it is like, as if you...you have an orange and you squeeze and squeeze and squeeze it and everything is out of it - all the juice and everything and there is nothing left but the rind; it is useless, it has no more life in it, it has been finished. And that is how many people...they are constantly like oranges that have been squeezed and squeezed until it hurts. And yet out of it comes all the goodness and that goodness is caught up, as it were, and over here you realise that it was essential to be, in a sense, like the orange; to be squeezed and pummelled until there is nothing left, only the rind - and that is the body which is finished and dies.


But the spirit, the essence, the vitality, the life; the important part of man - the soul - rises to become a perfected, angelic soul. It's that difficult, but I want you to know that in spite of everything, in spite of all the disillusionments and the unhappiness, in spite of all the moments that have been important to you and the joys that have held you for a short space of time - out of all the conditions of life as you know it - you arise and you emerge triumphant. And that is the important thing.


Because you come here then, with the full knowledge that you have been tested and you have been found not wanting, that you have left behind forever all the grossness and the materialness of the Earth and the spirit has become perfected, to a degree, that it can go forward and learn and absorb all the beauties of an eternal life and with it all that it holds - and in your case especially, as in mine and many others, music plays a vital and important part.


It is so tremendous in itself, the music here, that when I come to your Earth and try to find words to describe it, I cannot. When I listen to your music I appreciate it, for I know what goes behind it and I sense and I feel, perhaps, more than the average person can in your world when he listens to it, because I am 'in touch' with the composer and his conception of life and the things that are vital and important.


But even so, to me it sounds...well, not empty, I cannot say that, but it is as unfinished. It is something that is not truly formed, it is not full - it is not empty, but it lacks something. Because here in the spiritual worlds there is such music of such tremendous beauty and power, that whatever we may listen to in your world - beautiful though it must be to your ears and, to some extent, ours, it is still only, shall we say...well, not...


Creet:
Well of course the vibrations are so completely different on your side, to what it is here...


Chopin:
You see, the compass in your world is so small.

Creet:
Yes.


Chopin:
That which the human ear can hear is a very limited, indeed, aspect of music; there is so much that is beyond your range. Here there is tremendous possibility of such tremendous scope, that any musician when he first arrive here, it almost bewilders him. I know how it affected me when I first come here. It was so magnificent, it was so...well, comprehensive, in as much that it had tremendous possibilities; I realised then that, for the first time, I could really become a musician. On Earth I used to get discontented. I used to feel, “ah, what could I do with this? I can't do much, I can't do more than so-and-so.” And I used to think “ah, the little compass that I've got here, it's impossible” and I used to do the most ridiculous things; tricks, people...some people called them. Tricks. They said, “ah, that man is a trick pianist!"


Creet:
[Laughing]


Chopin:
“he does things we can't play”...and they get annoyed and they say “ah, he write this but I don't suppose he could even play it, if he were even asked to play it!” But I used to have to show some people that I could play it to prove it was playable, you know?


Creet:
Yes.


Chopin:
Oh !


Creet:
Ha! [Laughing]


Chopin:
Over here there is such tremendous, vast scope - on such a scale that your imagination reels at the very thought of it.


Creet:
Yes Frédéric, but if the scope keeps on lightning and lightning, doesn't it, there is a certain limit...


Chopin:
Well if there is a limit I still haven't found it, thank God!

Creet:
You haven't?


Chopin:
No.


Creet:
But as you keep on progressing there is a certain limit, till you keep on and there's [unintelligible] scope.


Chopin:
I suppose eventually there comes a limit, I don't know. But, huh, when you think of the enormous possibilities; for instance, the piano - the tremendous range is still on the piano, the scale is so tremendous that...


Creet:
Yes, but Frédéric...


Chopin:
...I mean you can compose and compose and compose and still not include...well, everything.


Creet:
But how many notes has a scale with you? I suppose, countless?


Chopin:
Countless.


Creet:
What do you call a scale there?


Chopin:
I don't know, I just used that as an Earthly term to give you an impression...


Creet:
[Laughing]


Chopin:
I don't know - you ask me what a scale is...


Creet:
[Laughing]


Chopin:
...everything that's a scale isn't, uh, in a sense, here...but I only try to put it in a way you can understand.


Creet:
Yes, yes.


Chopin:
But you know, the limitations of the piano, I didn't find it, perhaps, all that limited. But I did find it at times limited, I used to feel “ah, there ought to be more notes on that side and more notes on this, and some above and some below.” You know, I used to get furious.


Creet:
Ha!


Chopin:
But here, there seems to be no limit - and you see, there again, you don't understand. You imagine that, uh, one has a stretch of so far and no further. That is a limitation of the flesh, over here it doesn't exist.


Creet:
Hmm...


Chopin:
There is no limitation to...


Creet:
Well, you must have felt quite at home when you got there, as regard your stretches anyway...[unintelligible]


Chopin:
I know, but, ah...huh! Oh there's going to be some very funny things happen when you come here.


Creet:

Huh!


Chopin:
I can see you stretching this way and that way...


Creet:
[Laughing]


Chopin:
You'll be like a plasticine waxwork dummy...


Creet:
[Laughing]


Chopin:
You'll say, “I can't do that.” I'll say, “You can. Just think you can do it, just imagine it is possible. You're not limited now by the physical body which was so limited. Now you can do this, you can stretch this and that.” And you'll say, “Look at me, how can I? I'm small and fat.”


Creet:
[Laughing]


Chopin:
But I'll say, “But you are small and fat no more, that was when you was on Earth...”


Creet:
[Laughing]


Chopin:
“...Now you are slim and tall and graceful and beautiful and your fingers; you have a bigger stretch, you can do it.”
And I have to hypnotise you almost to do things!


Creet:
[Laughing]


Chopin:
I don't know...you see, when people first come here they can only imagine and visualise themselves and their abilities by their Earthly standards.


Creet:
Yes.


Chopin:
And one of the first things we have to do is to teach people there are no Earthly standards. In fact, in a sense, there are no standards at all - only the standards that you set yourself. And if you set yourself a very high standard like, for instance, when I begin over here I set myself an unlimited standard, a tremendous standard; and gradually I accomplished and reached that standard, then I want more and I experiment...get more.


It is all a matter of mind and I don't mean a physical mind, a material mind. It is the realisation within your soul that you can do certain things, that it is possible to this or do that - and you begin to change in consequence. A man is as he thinks; if he thinks great thoughts, he is a great man. If he thinks he can play great music, eventually he can make himself. Even on Earth it is possible...


[Break in recording]


    I know that every artist must give his interpretation. I know there is some artists who do not play my music very well, but nevertheless, in their own right, in their own way, they are artists of a degree. It may not be your idea of a degree, it may not be mine. But remember, that they have achieved something because they work at it...


    Creet:
    Yes.


    Chopin:
    ...because they practice at it. They may not necessarily always feel my music as I would like them to feel it, but at least technically, to some extent, they perform.

END OF RECORDING

This transcript was created by Simon Lovelock and K.Jackson-Barnes

With grateful thanks to Joëlle Cerfoglia.